halti training lead review

lehrer: good evening from the bushnell theatrein hartford, connecticut. i'm jim lehrer of the news hour on pbs. welcome to the firstof the 1996 presidential debates between president bill clinton, the democratic nominee, andsenator bob dole, the republican nominee. this event is sponsored by the commissionon presidential debates. it will last 90 minutes following a format and rules worked out bythe two campaigns. there will be two-minute opening and closingstatements. in between, a series of questions, each having three parts. a 90-second answer,a 60-second rebuttal, and a 30-second response. i will assist the candidates in adhering tothose time limits with the help of a series of lights visible to both.

under their rules, the candidates are notallowed to question each other directly. i will ask the questions. there are no limitationson the subjects. the order for everything tonight was determinedby coin toss. now, to the opening statements and to president clinton. mr. president. clinton: thank you, jim. and thank you tothe people of hartford, our hosts. i want to begin by saying again how much irespect senator dole and his record of public service and how hard i will try to make thiscampaign and this debate one of ideas, not insults. four years ago i ran for president at a timeof high unemployment and rising frustration.

i wanted to turn this country around witha program of opportunity for all, responsibility from all, and an american community whereeverybody has a role to play. four years ago you took me on faith. now there's a record:ten and a half million more jobs, rising incomes, falling crime rates and welfare rolls, a strongamerica at peace. we are better off than we were four yearsago. let's keep it going. we cut the deficit by 60 percent. now, let's balance the budgetand protect medicare, medicaid, education and the environment. we cut taxes for 15 millionworking americans. now let's pass the tax cuts for education and child rearing, helpwith medical emergencies, and buying a home. we passed family and medical leave. now let'sexpand it so more people can succeed as parents

and in the work force. we passed 100,000 police,the assault weapons ban, the brady bill. now let's keep going by finishing the work ofputting the police on the street and tackling juvenile gangs. we passed welfare reform. now let's move amillion people from welfare to work. and most important, let's make education our highestpriority so that every eight-year-old will be ready to read, every 12-year-old can logonto the internet, every 18-year-old can go to college. we can build that bridge to the21st century. and i look forward to discussing exactly how we're going to do it. lehrer: senator dole, two minutes.

dole: thank you. thank you, mr. president,for those kind words. thank the people of hartford, the commission, and all those outhere who may be listening or watching. it's a great honor for me to be here standinghere as the republican nominee. i'm very proud to be the republican nominee reaching outto democrats and independents. i have three very special people with me tonight:my wife, elizabeth; my daughter, robin, who has never let me down, and a fellow namedfrank carafa from new york, along with ollie manninen who helped me out in the mountainsof italy a few years back. i've learned from them that people do havetough times. and sometimes you can't go it alone. and that's what america is all about.

i remember getting my future back from doctorsand nurses and a doctor in chicago named dr. kalikian . and ever since that time, i'vetried to give something back to my country, to the people who are watching us tonight. america is the greatest place on the faceof the earth. now, i know millions of you still have anxieties. you work harder andharder to make ends meet and put food on the table. you worry about the quality and thesafety of your children, and the quality of education. but even more importantly, youworry about the future and will they have the same opportunities that you and i havehad. and jack kemp and i want to share with yousome ideas tonight. jack kemp is my running

mate, doing an outstanding job. now, i'm aplain-speaking man and i learned long ago that your word was your bond. and i promiseyou tonight that i'll try to address your concerns and not try to exploit them. it'sa tall order, but i've been running against the odds for a long time and, again, i'm honoredto be here this evening. lehrer: mr. president, first question. thereis a major difference in your view of the role of the federal government and that ofsenator dole. how would you define the difference? clinton: well, jim, i believe that the federalgovernment should give people the tools and try to establish the conditions in which theycan make the most of their own lives. that, to me, is the key. and that leads me to somedifferent conclusions from senator dole.

for example, we have reduced the size of thefederal government to its smallest size in 30 years. we reduced more regulations, eliminatedmore programs than my two republican predecessors. but i have worked hard for things like thefamily and medical leave law, the brady bill, the assault weapons ban, the program to put100,000 police on the street. all of these are programs that senator dole opposed thati supported, because i felt they were a legitimate effort to help people make the most of theirown lives. i've worked hard to help families impart values to their own children. i supportedthe v-chip so that parents would be able to control what their kids watch on televisionwhen they're young, along with the ratings systems for television and educational television.i supported strong action against the tobacco

companies to stop the marketing, advertising,and sale of tobacco to young people. i supported a big increase in the safe and drug-free schoolsprogram. these were areas on which senator dole and i differed, but i believed they werethe right areas for america to be acting together as one country to help individuals and familiesmake the most of their own lives and raise their kids with good values and a good future. lehrer: senator dole, one minute. dole: i think the basic difference is, andi have had some experience in this, i think the basic difference, i trust the people.the president trusts the government. we go back and look at the healthcare plan thathe wanted to impose on the american people.

one seventh the total economy, 17 new taxes,price controls, 35 to 50 new bureaucracies that cost $1.5 trillion. don't forget that,that happened in 1993. a tax increase, a tax everybody in america. not just the rich. ifyou made 25,000 as the original proposal, you got your social security taxes increased.we had a btu tax we turned into a $35 million gas tax, a $265 billion tax increase. i guess i rely more on the individual. i carrya little card in my pocket called the tenth amendment. where possible, i want to givepower back to the states and back to the people. that's my difference with the president. we'llhave specific differences later. he noted a few, but there are others.

lehrer: mr. president, 30 seconds. clinton: i trust the people. we've done alot to give the people more powers to make their own decisions over their own lives.but i do think we are right when we try to, for example, give mothers and newborns 48hours before they can be kicked out of the hospital, ending these drive-by deliveries. i think we were right to pass the kassebaum-kennedybill, which says you can't lose your health insurance just because you change jobs orbecause someone in your family's been sick. our government is smaller and less bureaucraticand has given more authority to the states than its two predecessors under republicanpresidents. but i do believe we have to help

our people get ready to succeed in the 21stcentury. lehrer: senator dole, the president said inhis opening statement we are better off today than we were four years ago. do you agree? dole: well, he's better off than he was fouryears ago. clinton: i agree with that. that's right. dole: and i may be better off four years fromnow, but i don't know. i looked at the slowest growth in the century. he inherited a growthof 4.7 4.8 percent, now it's down to about 2.4 percent. we're going to pass a millionbankruptcies this year for the first time in history. we've got stagnant wages. in fact,women's wages have dropped 2.2 percent. men's

wages haven't gone up, gone down. so we havestagnation. we have the highest foreign debt in history.and it seems to me that if you take a look, are you better off? well, i guess some maybe better off. saddam hussein is probably better off than he was four years ago. reneeproval (ph) is probably better off than he was four years ago. but are the american people?they're working harder and higher and harder paying more taxes. for the first time in history,you pay about 40 percent of what you earn. more than you spend for food, clothing andshelter combined for taxes under this administration. so some may be better off. they talk about family income being up. that'snot true in connecticut, family income is

down. and it's up in some cases because bothparents are working. one works for the family, and one works to pay taxes for the government.we're going to give them tax cuts so they can spend more time with their children, maybeeven take a vacation. that's what america is all about. lehrer: one minute, mr. president. clinton: well, let me say, first of all, infebruary senator dole acknowledged that the american economy was in the best shape it'sbeen in in 30 years. we have ten and a half million more jobs, a faster job growth ratethan under any republican administration since the 1920s. wages are goings up for the firsttime in a decade. we have record numbers of

new small businesses. we have the biggestdrop in the number of people in poverty in 27 years. all groups of people are growing.we had the biggest drop in income inequality in 27 years in 1995. the average family's income has gone up over$1600 just since our economic plan passed. so i think it's clear that we're better offthan we were four years ago. now we need to focus on what do we need to do to be betteroff still. how can we help people as we are to get their retirements when they work forsmall businesses, to be able to afford health insurance, to be able to educate their children.that's what i want to focus on. but we are clearly better off than we were four yearsago, as senator dole acknowledged this year.

lehrer: senator dole. dole: i doubt that i acknowledged that thisyear. but in any event, i think we just look at the facts. we ask the people that are viewingtonight, are you better off than you were in '94. four years ago. it's not whether we'rebetter off, it's whether they're better off. are you working harder to put food on thetable, feed your children. are your children getting a better education. drug use has doubledthe past 44 months all across america. crime has gone down but it's because the mayorslike rudy giuliani where one third of the drop happened in one city, new york city. so, yes, some may be better off. but of thepeople listening tonight, the working families

who will benefit from economic packages, they'llbe better off when bob dole is president and jack kemp is vice president. lehrer: mr. president, senator dole has comepretty close in the last few days to accusing you of lying about his position on medicarereform. have you done so? clinton: absolutely not. let's look at theposition. first of all, remember that in this campaign season, since senator dole's beena candidate, he has bragged about the fact that he voted against medicare in the beginning,in 1965, one of only 12 members. he said he did the right thing then, he knew it wouldn'twork at the time. that's what he said. then his budget that he passed along withspeaker gingrich cut medicare $270 billion,

more than was necessary to repair the medicaretrust fund. it would have charged seniors more for out-of-pocket costs as well as morein premiums because doctors could have charged them more. the american medical, hospitalassociation, the nurses association, the catholic hospital association all said hundreds ofhospitals could close and people would be hurt badly under the dole-gingrich medicareplan that i vetoed. and now with this risky $550 billion tax schemeof senator dole's, even his own friends, his campaign co-chair, senator d'amato, says thatthey can't possibly pay for it without cutting medicare more and cutting social securityas well, according to him. now, my balanced budget plan adds ten yearsto the life of the medicare trust fund, ten

years. and we'll have time to deal with thelong-term problems of the baby boomers. but it was simply wrong to finance their lastscheme to cut medicare $270 billion to run the risk of it withering on the vine. we alwayshad to reform it over the years, but we need somebody who believes it in to reform it. dole: well, i must say, i look back at thevote on medicare in 1965, we had a program called eldercare that also provided drugsand means tests to people who needed medical attention received it. i thought it was agood program. but i've supported medicare ever since. in fact, i used to go home, my mother wouldtell me, bob, all i've got is my social security

and my medicare, don't cut it. i wouldn'tviolate anything my mother said. in fact, we had a conversation about our mothers oneday, a very poignant conversation in the white house. i'm concerned about healthcare. i'vehad the best healthcare from government hospitals, army hospitals and i know its importance,but we've got to fix it. it's his trustees, the president's trustees, not mine, who saysit's going to go broke. he doesn't fix it for ten years. we ought to appoint a commission,just as we did in social security in 1983, when we rescued social security, and i wasproud to be on that commission, along with claude pepper, the champion of senior citizensin florida. and we can do it again, if we take politics out of it. stop scaring theseniors, mr. president. you've already spent

$45 million scaring seniors and tearing meapart. i think it's time to have a truce. lehrer: mr. president. clinton: well, let me say, first of all, i'dbe happy to have a commission deal with this and i appreciate what senator dole did onthe '83 social security commission. but it won't be possible to do, if his tax schemepasses because even his own campaign co-chair, senator d'amato, says he'll have to cut medicareeven more than was cut in the bill that i vetoed. i vetoed that bill because it cutmore medicare and and basically ran the risk of breaking up the system. my balanced budgetplan puts ten years on the medicare. we ought to do that, then we can have a commission.but senator dole's plans are not good for

the country. lehrer: senator dole, speaking of your taxplan, do you still think that's a good idea, the 15 percent across the board tax cut? dole: oh, yes. and you'll be eligible. clinton: me too? dole: and so will the former president, yes. clinton: i need it. dole: well, the people need it, that's thepoint. this is not a wall street tax cut. this is a family tax cut. this is a main streettax cut, 15 percent across -- let's take a

family making $30,000 a year, that's $1261.now, may be some in this bushnell memorial that it's not a lot of money, but people watchingtonight with a couple of kids, a working family, that's four or five months of day care, maybea personal computer; it's may be three or four months of mortgage payments. this economicpackage is about families but it's a six-point package. first of all, it's a balanced budgetamendment to the constitution which president clinton defeated. he twisted arms and gotsix democrats to vote the other way, but we lost by one vote. it's balancing a budgetby the year 2002. it's a tax cut, cutting capital gains 50 percent. so you can go outand create more jobs and more opportunities. it's a state tax relief. it's a $500 per childtax credit. it's about litigation reforms.

now that the president gets millions of dollarsfrom the trial lawyers, he probably doesn't like this provision. in fact, when i felloff the podium in chico, before i lit the ground, hit the ground i had call on my cellphone from a trial lawyer saying i think we've got a case here. and it's also regulatoryreform. it's a good package, mr. president. we'd like to have your support. clinton: well, here's the problem with it:it sounds very good, but there's a reason that 500 economists, including seven nobelprize winners and business periodicals like business week, and even senator dole's friends,senator warren; rudman, former republican senator from new hampshire, says it's nota practical program. it's a $550 billion tax

scheme that will cause a big hole in the deficitwhich will raise interest rates and slow down the economy and cause people to pay more forhome mortgages, car payments, credit card payments, college loans, and small businessloans. it's not good to raise the deficit. we worked too hard to lower it. it will actuallyraise taxes on nine million people and, in addition to that, it will force bigger cutsin medicare, medicaid, education and the environment than the ones that he and mr. gingrich passedthat i vetoed last year. so it sounds great, but our targeted tax cut for education, childrearing, healthcare and home buying, which is paid for in my balanced budget plan, somethingthat he has not done, certified by the congressional budget office, that's the right way to go.

dole: the president wants to increase spending20 percent over the next six years. i want to increase spending 14 percent, that's howsimple it is. i want the government to pinch pennies for a change instead of the americanfamilies. we're talking about six percentage points over six years, and with that moneyyou give it back to the working people. you also provide opportunity scholarships so lowincome parents will have the same choice that others have in sending their children to betterschools. it will work, and when it does work, mr. president, i know you'll congratulateme. lehrer: mr. president, the senator mentionedtrial lawyers and campaign, that means campaign financing. how do you personally avoid beingunduly influenced by people who give you money

or give you services in your campaigns? clinton: well, i try to articulate my positionsas clearly as possible, tell people what i stand for and let them decide whether they'regoing to support me or not. the senator mentioned the trial lawyers. inthe case of the product liability bill, which they passed and i vetoed, i think that's whathe's talking about, i actually wanted to sign that bill. and i told the people exactly whatthe congress exactly what kind of bill i would sign. now, a lot of the trial lawyers didn'twant me to sign any bill at all, but i had thought we ought to do what we could to cutfrivolous lawsuits, but they wouldn't make some of the changes that i thought shouldbe made.

now, let me just give you an example. i hada person in the oval office who lost a child in a school bus accident where a drunk drivercaused the accident directly, but there were problems with the school bus. the drunk driverhad no money. under the new bill, if i had signed it, a person like that could neverhave had any recovery. i thought that was wrong. so i gave four or five specific examplesto the congress and said, prove to me that these people could recover but we're goingto eliminate frivolous lawsuits, i'll sign the bill. but generally i believe that a presidenthas to be willing to do what he thinks is right. i've done a lot of things that werecontroversial. my economic plan, my trade position, bosnia, haiti, taking on the nrafor the first time, taking on tobacco companies

for the first time. sometimes you just haveto do that because you know it's right for the country over the long run. that's whati've tried to do and that's what i will continue to do as president. dole: how does he avoid conflict? well, idon't know in the case of the trial lawyers. i look at the trial lawyers, and when you'rea few million short, you run out to hollywood and pick up two to four million and organizedlabor comes to washington, d.c. and puts 35 million into the pot. now, if these aren'tspecial interests, i've got a lot to learn. i was there for a while before i left on junethe 11th. the trial lawyers and i don't -- you know, my wife's a lawyer. we're the only twolawyers in washington that trust each other.

but we're lawyers, i like lawyers. i don'tdislike trial lawyers. but it seemed to me there's got to be some end to the frivolouslawsuits and there's got to be some cap on punitive damage. you're putting a lot of businesspeople out of business. small businessmen and businesswomen who paid 70 percent of yourninteen , your$265 billion tax increase, the largest tax increase in the history of america.i said that one day and pat moynihan, a democrat, say, no, he said, in the history of the world.so i modified it, the largest tax increase in the history of the world. and it seemsto me that there is a problem there, mr. president. and i will address you as mr. president. youdidn't do that with mr. with president bush in 1992.

clinton: let me say, first of all, i signeda tort reform bill that dealt with civilian aviation a couple of years ago. i proved thati will sign reasonable tort reform. secondly, senator dole had some pretty harsh commentsabout special interest money, but it wasn't me who opposed what we tried to do to savethe lives of children who were subject to tobacco and then went to the tobacco growersand bragged about standing up for the federal government when we tried to stop the advertising,marketing, and sales of tobacco to children. and it wasn't me that let the polluters actuallycome into the halls of congress, into the rooms, and rewrite the environmental laws.that's what speaker gingrich and senator dole did, not me.

dole: that's not true. clinton: so i believe that we should takea different approach to this and talk about how we stand on the issues instead of tryingto characterize each other's motivations. i think senator dole and i just honestly disagree. lehrer: well, senator dole, let me ask youthe same question i asked the president: how do you avoid being influenced by people whocontribute money and services to your campaigns? dole: i think it's very difficult. let's behonest about it. that's why we need campaign finance reform. that's why i reach out tothe perot voters. we've done about all, we are the reform party, the republican party.and the perot voters that are looking for

a home ought to take a look at the republicanrecord. whatever it is, whatever the checklist was in '92, it's all done with campaign financereform. i worked with senator mitchell, who played me, i guess, in the debate warmup.we tried six or eight years ago. he appointed three people, i appointed three people toget campaign finance reform. we couldn't get it done, because i wasn't enforceable. you've suggested a commission, newt gingrichdid, i suggested that at least four or five years ago. we have a commission on campaignfinance reform. they send it to congress, and we have to vote it up or down. that'show it works. we are never going to fix it by the parties, because democrats want a betteradvantage for themselves, we want a better

advantage as republicans, and that's not howit's going to work. but i want to touch on this is tobacco thing.i know the president's been puffing a lot on that. but i want to go back to 1965. thatwas my first vote against tobacco companies when i said we ought to label cigarettes.and i've had a consistent record ever since 1965. we passed a bill in 1992 that encouragedthe states to adopt programs to stop kids from smoking. all 50 states did it. it tookthree and a half years. it wasn't until election year, mr. president, that you ever thoughtabout stopping smoking. what about drugs that have increased, doubledin the last 44 months? cocaine is up 141 percent -- marijuana, cocaine up 166 percent. it seemsto me that you have a selective memory. you

know, mine doesn't work that way. so i justwant to try to correct it as we go along. clinton: mr. lehrer, i hope we'll have a chanceto discuss drugs later in the program. but let me respond to what you said. i agree thattoo many incumbent politicians in washington in both parties have consistently opposedcampaign finance reform. that was certainly the case from the minute i got there. so afterspeaker gingrich and senator dole took over the congress, i went to new hampshire anda man suggested -- a gentleman that unfortunately just passed away a couple of days ago, suggestedthat we appoint a commission. and i shook hands with him on it and i appointed my members,and the commission never met. and then senator dole's ardent supporters, senator mccain,who's out there today, along with senator

feingold, supported, sponsored a campaignfinance reform proposal. i strongly supported it. and members of senator dole's own partyin the senate killed it. and he was not out there urging them to vote for the mccain-feingoldbill. so i think the american people, including the perot supporters, know that i have hada consistent record in favor of campaign finance reform, and i will continue to have. and ihope we can finally get it in the next session of congress, because we need it badly. lehrer: senator dole, 30 seconds. dole: well, on campaign reform itself, we'regoing to get it when we have a bipartisan commission, take it out of politics. get peoplewho don't have any interest in politics but

understand the issue and let them make therecommendation to congress. now, we're now kidding anybody, mr. president. there's sophisticatedpeople watching tonight. millions and millions of americans. they know the republican partyhasn't done it. they know the democratic party won't do it. we ought to agree that somebodyelse should do it. and we have to vote it up or down, mr. president. lehrer: mr. president, the senator mentioneddrugs. he suggested that you are -- you bear some responsibility for the rise in drug useof teenagers in the united states. is he right? clinton: well, jim, i think every americanin any position of responsibility should be concerned about what's happened. i am. butlet's look at the overall record. overall

in america cocaine use has dropped 30 percentin the last four years, casual drug use down 13 percent. the tragedy is that our youngpeople are still increasing their use of drugs up to about 11 percent total with marijuana,and i regret it. let me tell you what i tried to do about it. i appointed a four-star generalwho led our efforts south of the border to keep drugs from coming into the country asour nation's drug czar. the most heavily directed, decorated solder in uniform when he retired.we submitted the biggest drug budget ever. we have dramatically increased control andenforcement at the border. we supported a a crime bill that had 60 death penalties including,including the death penalty for drug kingpins. and i supported a big expansion in safe anddrug-free schools program to support things

like the dare program because i thought allthose things were very important. do i think that i bear some responsibility for the factthat too many of our children still don't understand drugs are wrong, drugs can killyou. even though i have consistently opposed the legalization of drugs all my public lifeand worked hard against them. i think we all do. and i hope we can do better. i don't thinkthis issue should be politicized because my record is clear and i don't think senatordole supports using using drugs. i think we just have to continue to work on this untilthose who think it isn't dangerous and won't kill them and won't destroy their lives, getthe message and change. lehrer: senator.

dole: again, well it's, you are very selective,mr. president. you don't want to politicize drugs, but it's already politicized medicare,go out and scare senior citizens and other vulnerable groups, veterans and people whoget pell grants and things like this. i mean, you say we've done all these bad things, whichisn't the case. but it seems to me the record is clear. the record is pretty clear in arkansas,when you were governor. drug use doubled. you resisted the appointment of a drug czarthere because you thought it might interfere with treatment. but here you cut the drugczar's office 83 percent. you cut interdiction substantially. i mean that's what, i wantto stop it from coming across the border. and in my administration, we're going to trainthe national guard to stop it from coming

across the border. this is a invasion of drugsfrom all over the world. and we have a responsibility. you had a surgeon -- or before general mccaffrey(ph) you had a lady who said we ought to consider legalizing drugs. is that the kind of leadershipwe need? and i won't comment on other things that happened in your administration or yourpast about drugs. but it seems to me the kids ought to -- if they've started, they oughtto stop and just don't do it. clinton: let me say again, we did have a drugczar in arkansas, but he answered to the governor, just like this one answers to the president.that's what i thought we ought to do. secondly, senator dole, you voted againstthe crime bill that had the death penalty for drug kingpins in it. and you voted tocut services to 23 million school children

under the safe and drug-free schools act.i don't think that means you're soft on drugs. we just have a different approach. but letme remind you, my family has suffered from drug abuse. i know what it's like to see somebodyyou love nearly lose their lives, and i hate drugs, senator. we need to do this togetherand we can. lehrer: senator dole, on the government, continuingto talk about the government's role. if elected president, would you seek to repeal the bradybill and the ban on assault weapons? dole: not if i didn't have a better idea.but i've got a better idea. it's something i've worked on for 15 years. it's called theautomated check or the instant check. it's being used in 17 states right now. stateslike florida, colorado, virginia, and other

states. you don't buy any gun. you don't getany gun. we've got 20 million names on a computer in washington, d.c. of people who should nothave guns. we ought to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. and, there are eight othercategories that should not have guns. i've been working on this for a long, long time.you walk in, you put your little card in there. if it says tilt, you don't get any gun. youdon't get a hand gun, you don't get a rifle, you don't get a shot gun, you get zippo. if we're going to protect american childrenand american families and people who live as prisoners in their own home, we've gotto stop guns from being dumped on the street. the administration says they support the instantcheck. they've appropriated about $200 million,

but only spent about $3 million to get itunderway. in our administration, in my administration, we will expedite. this keeps up with technology.it keeps guns out of the hands of people who should not have guns. that is the bottom line.and i believe it's a good idea, has strong bipartisan support. and perhaps that's anotherthing we can depoliticize. you talk about the brady bill. there has onlybeen one prosecution under the brady -- only one under the assault weapon ban and onlyseven under the brady bill that you talk about all the time. and on the assault weapon ban,out of 17 weapons that were banned, only six banned now because two have been modifiedand are back on the street. let's get together on this instant check because that will reallymake a difference.

clinton: let me say, first of all, senatordole has gone back and forth about whether he'd be for repealing the brady bill or repealingthe assault weapons ban. and i think his present position is he would not do so, and if that'strue i'm grateful for it. but let's look at the facts here. the brady bill has kept atleast 60,000 felons, fugitives and stalkers from getting hand guns. senator dole led thefight against the brady bill. he tried to keep it from coming to my desk. he didn'tsucceed and i signed it and i'm glad i did. then when we had the assault weapons ban inthe senate, senator dole fought it bitterly and opposed the entire crime bill and almostbrought the entire crime bill down because the national rifle association didn't wantthe assault weapons ban, just like they didn't

want the brady bill. but two years later nobody'slost their handguns. i mean, their rifles. we've expanded the brady bill to cover peoplewho beat up their spouses and their kids. and this is a safer country. so i'm glad itook on that fight and i believe, with all respect, i was right and he was wrong. dole: well, the president doesn't have itquite right. i mean, it seemed to me at the time the assault weapon ban was not effective.but that's history. i told the nra that's history. you're not going to worry about itanymore. i'm not going to worry about it anymore. let's do something better. let's stop, youknow, playing the political game, mr. president. talking about this and this. you add all thestates that've used the instant check and

how many weapons they keep, kept out of thehands of criminals. it would far surpass the numbers you mentioned. so in my view, if youwant to be protected, you ought to vote for bob dole and we'll get the instant check passedand we'll keep guns out of the hands of criminals. lehrer: mr. president, senator dole said theother day that you practiced a photo-op foreign policy that has lessened the credibility ofthe united states throughout the world. is he wrong about that? clinton: if he, that's what he said, he'snot right about that. look at where we are today. the united states is still the indispensablenation in the aftermath of the cold war and on the brink of the 21st century. i have workedto support our country as the world's strongest

force for peace and freedom, prosperity andsecurity. we have done the following things: numberone, we've managed the aftermath of the cold war, supporting a big drop in nuclear weaponsin russia. the removal of russian troops from the baltics. the integration of central andeastern european democracies into a new partnership with nato. and, i might add, with the democraticrussia. there are no nuclear missiles pointed at thechildren of the united states tonight and have not been in our administration for thefirst time since the dawn of the nuclear age. we have worked hard for peace and freedom.when i took office, haiti was governed by a dictator that had defied the united states.when i took office, the worst war in europe

was waging in bosnia. now there is a the democraticallyelected president in haiti. peace in bosnia. we just had the election there. we've madeprogress in northern ireland, in the middle east. we've also stood up to the new threatsof terrorism. the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, organized crime, andwe have worked hard to expand america's economic presence around the world with the biggestincrease in trade with the largest new number of trade agreements in history and that'sone of the reasons america is number one in auto production again. dole: well, i have a different view. again,i supported the president on bosnia, and i think we were told the troops would be outin a year. now i understand it's been extended

'til some time next year. but, let's startwith somalia, where they dragged americans through the streets, and where 18 americanswere killed one day, because they didin't have, they were pinned down for eight hours,the rangers. they didn't have the weapons, they didn't have the tanks. they asked fortanks. they didn't get the tanks from this administration because we were nation building.it's called mission creep. we turn it over to the united nations. the president didn'thave much to do about it. you look at haiti, where we spend about three billion dollarsand we got an alarm call there about two weeks ago. you got to send down some more people,because the president's found out there are death squads on his on his, in his own property.so we need more protection from america. bosnia,

northern ireland. there's no ceasefire inbosnia. i think there are still lot of problems in bosnia. we agreed to train and arm themuslims so they could defend themselves, the policy you had when you ran in 1992. we haven'tdone that. we're way behind, which means americans can't come home. americans shouldn't havegone there in the first place, had we let them defend themselves, as they have a rightto do under article 57 of the united nations charter. clinton: first of all, i take full responsibilityfor what happened in somalia, but the american people must remember that those soldiers wereunder an american commander when that happened. i believe they did the best they could underthe circumstances, and let's not forget that

hundreds of thousands of lives were savedthere. secondly, in haiti, political violence ismuch, much smaller than it was. thirdly, in bosnia it's a virtual miracle that there hasbeen no return to war and at least there has now been an election. and institutions arebeginning to function. in northern ireland, in the middle east weare better off than we were four years ago. there will always be problems in this wholeworld. but if we're moving in the right direction and america is leading, we're better off. lehrer: senator dole, if elected president,what criteria would you use to decide when to send u.s. troops into harm's way.

dole: well it, after world war i, we had,you know, a policy of disengagement. then from world war i to world war ii we had sortof a compulsory engagement policy. now i think we have a selective engagement policy. wehave to determine when our interests are involved, not the united nations' interests. and manyof the things the president talked about, he turned over to the united nations. theydecided. he's deployed more troops than any presidentin history around the world. it's cost us billions and billions of dollars for peace-keepingoperations. look these are facts. and it seems to me that when you make a decision, the decisionis made by the president of the united states, by the commander-in-chief. he makes that decisionwhen he commits young men or young women who

are going to go round and defend our libertyand our freedom. that would be my position. then i'm going to have a top down review atthe pentagon, not a bottom up review. we all fight over how much money is there. i wanta top down review to determine what our priorities are and what we should do in defense, andthen follow that policy instead of this bottom up review with all the services fighting forthe money. you know, the president said he was going to cut defense $60 billion, he cutdefense $112 billion. devastated states like california and others. and i think now we'vegot a problem. we've got to go back and look. it's just like you said in texas one day,you know raised taxes too much, and you did, and you cut defense too much, mr. president,and you did. you may have said that, too.

but the bottom line is, we are the strongestnation in the world. we provide the leadership and we're going to have to continue to providethe leadership, but let's do it on our terms when our interests are involved and not whensomebody blows the whistle at the united nations. clinton: our military is the strongest militaryin the world. it is the strongest, best prepared, best equipped it has ever been. there is verylittle difference in the budget that i proposed and the republican budget over the next six-yearperiod. we are spending a lot of money to modernize our weapons system. i have proposeda lot of new investments to improve the quality of life for our soldiers, for our men andwomen in uniform, for their families, for their training. that is my solemn obligation.

you ask when do you decide to deploy them.the interests of the american people must be at stake. our values must be at stake.we have to be able to make a difference. and frankly we have to consider what the risksare to our young men and women in uniform. but i believe the evidence is that our deploymentshave been successful, in haiti, in bosnia, when we moved to kuwait to repel saddam hussein'sthreatened invasion of kuwait. when i have sent the fleet into the taiwan straits. whenwe've worked hard to end the northern korean nuclear threat. i believe the united states is at peace tonightin part because of the disciplined, careful, effective deployment of our military resources.

dole: well i failed to mention north koreaand cuba, a while ago. you look at north korea where they have enough plutonium to buildsix nuclear bombs. we've sort of distanced ourselves from our ally, south korea. theylost about a million people in the war, the korean war, the forgotten war. we lost 53,000americans. we shouldn't be doing any favors for northkorea. it's a closed society. we don't have any inspection. we don't know whether it'sgoing to work or not, but we keep giving the incentives. someone called them somethingelse. incentives. we don't know what's going to happen. here we have cuba 90 miles fromour shores, and what have we done, we passed the law that gave people a right to sue andthe president postponed it for six months.

and it seemed to me if you want to send asignal, you've got to send a signal, mr. president. the sooner the better off we'll be, if youput tougher sanctions on castro, not try to make it easier for him. lehrer: mr. president, what is your attitudetoward cuba and how cuba should be treated? clinton: well, first of all, for the lastfour years we have worked had to put more and more pressure on the castro governmentto bring about more openness and move toward democracy. in 1992, before i became president,the congress passed the cuba democracy act and i enforced it vigorously. we made theembargo tougher but we increased contacts people to people with the cubans, includingdirect telephone service, which was largely

supported by the cuban-american community.then cuba shot down two of our planes and murdered four people in international airspace. they were completely beyond the pale of the law, and i signed the helms-burtonlegislation. senator dole is correct. i did give about six months before the effectivedate of the act before lawsuits can actually be filed, even though they're effective now,and can be legally binding, because i want to change cuba. and the united states needshelp from other countries. nobody in the world agrees with our policyon cuba now. but this law can be used as leverage to get other countries to help us to movecuba to democracy. every single country in latin america, central america and the caribbeanis a democracy tonight but cuba. and if we

stay firm and strong, we will be able to bringcuba around as well. dole: that's the point i made. we have tobe firm and strong. and i hope that will happen. it will happen starting next january and maybeit can happen the balance of this year. we have not been firm and strong. you look atthe poor people who still live in cuba. it's a haven for drug smugglers and we don't havea firm policy when it comes to fidel castro. in my view, the policy has failed. so congress passes the law, the presidentsigns it, like he does a lot of things. but he, like welfare reform, i'm going to signit but i'm going to try to change it next year. a lot of these election-year conversions,the president talks about the drug money,

and all the other things, all this antismokingcampaign all happened in 1996. and i think the people viewing out there oughtto go back and take a look at the record when he fought a balanced budget amendment. whenhe gave you that biggest tax increase in history; when he tried to take over your healthcaresystem. when he fought regulatory reform that cost the average family 6 to $7,000 a year.this is a serious business. it's about your family; it's about your business, and in thiscase it's about a firmer policy with cuba. clinton: there were several off-the-subjectquaffers in that litany. let me just mention, senator dole voted for $900 billion in taxincreases. his running mate jack kemp once said that bob dole never met a tax he didn'thike. and everybody knows, including the wall

street journal, hardly a friend of the democraticparty of this administration, that the '82 tax increase he sponsored in inflation-adjusteddollars was the biggest tax increase in american history. so we ought to at least get the factsout here on the table so we can know where to go from here. lehrer: senator dole, you mentioned healthreform several times. what do you think should be done about the healthcare system? dole: let me first answer that question aboutthe 1982 tax cut. we were closing loopholes, we were going after big corporations. i knowyou probably would oppose it, mr. president, but i think we should have a fairer systemand a flatter system, and we'll have a fairer

and flatter system and we're going to makethe economic package work. healthcare. well, we finally passed the kassebaum bill. thepresident was opposed to it in 1993. he wanted to give us this big system, that took overabout one-seventh of the economy, that put on price controls, created all these statealliances, and would cost $1.5 trillion and force people into managed care, whether theywanted it or not. most people want to see their own doctor. they're going to see theirown doctor when bob dole is president. we won't threaten anybody. so we passed the kassebaum-kennedy, the kennedykassebaum bill that will cover about 20 to 25 million people. we've been for that forfour, five, six years. the president held

it up. and even when it finally got near passage,senator kennedy held it up for 100 days, because he wasn't satisfied with one condition. butit will cover preexisting conditions. if you change your job, you're going to be covered.so there are a lot of good things in this bill we should have done instead of tryingthis massive, massive takeover by the federal government. but then of course we had a democraticcongress and they didn't want to do that. until we got a republican congress, we finallygot action, i'm proud of my colleagues in the republican party for getting that done.it means a lot to a lot of people watching us tonight. clinton: well, that sounds very good, butit's very wrong. senator dole remembers well

that we actually offered not to even put ina healthcare bill in 1994, uh '93, but instead to work with the senate republicans and writea joint bill. and they said no because they got a memo from one of their political adviserssaying that instead they should characterize whatever we did as big government and makesure nothing was done to aid healthcare before the '94 elections so they could make thatclaim. well, maybe we bit off more than we could chew, but we're pursuing a step-by-stepreform now. the kennedy-kassebaum bill that i signed will make it possible for 25 millionpeople to keep their health insurance when they change jobs or when somebody in theirfamily's been sick. i signed a bill to stop these drive-by deliveries when insurance companiescan force people out of the hospital after

24 hours and i vetoed senator dole's medicareplan that would have forced a lot of seniors into managed care and taken a lot more moneyout of their pockets and led to medicare withering on the vine. dole: well, many of the provisions in thekassebaum bill were provisions that -- my provisions, like deductions for long-termcare, making certain that self-employed people that are watching tonight can deduct not 30percent but 80 percent of you pay for premiums. you can also deduct long-term care now, soit's a good it's a good start. i think there's enough -- we're even looking at our tax cutproposal, our economic package. there may be a way of reaching out to the uninsured,because there are a lot of uninsured people

in the country, particularly children, thatshould be covered. another way you can do is to expand medicaid. in america no one willgo without healthcare, no one will go without food. lehrer: senator, go ahead and finish yoursentence. dole: all right. food. lehrer: food. back to foreign affairs fora moment, mr. president. are you satisfied with the way you handled this last iraq crisisand the end result? clinton : well, i believe that we did the appropriatething under the circumstances. saddam hussein

is under a u.n. resolution not to threatenhis neighbors or threaten his own, repress his own citizens. unfortunately, a lot ofpeople, have never been as concerned about the kurds as the united states has tried tobe, and we've been flying an operation to protect them out of turkey for many yearsnow. what happened was one of the turkish, one of the kurdish leaders invited him togo up north, but we felt since the whole world community had told him not to do it, thatonce he did it we had to do something. we did not feel that i could commit. i certainlydidn't feel i should commit american troops to throw him out of where he had gone, andthat was the only way to do that. so the appropriate thing strategically to do was to reduce hisability to threaten his neighbors. we did

that by expanding what's called the no-flyzone by increasing our allies' control of the air space now from the kuwait border tothe suburbs of baghdad. was it the right thing to do? i believe it was. is it fully effective?did it make him withdraw from the north? well, he does , he has a little bit, and i hopehe will continue. we have learned that you give him an inch he'll take a mile. we hadto do something, and even though not all of our allies supported it at first, i thinkmost of them now believe that what we did was an appropriate thing to do. dole: well, the president's own cia directorsays saddam is stronger now than he was. i don't understand extending the no-fly zonein the south when the trouble was in the north.

and what we've done during the bush administration,the kurds were at the state department, negotiating, trying to work their differences out. nowwe've got all thousands and thousands of refugees. we're even shipping 3,000 kurds to guam. itinvolves turkey. it's a real problem. saddam is probably about as strong as he ever was.we shot, what, 44 cruise missiles, worth about a million-two a piece, and hit some radar,that repaired in a couple, three days. did we inflict any damage? no. did we have anyallies helping? well, we have great britain. they're always very loyal to us, and i appreciatethat. and of course kuwait. even though they had to find out they had 5,000 troops coming,they didn't even understand that. we had to get their permission. the bottom line is,we went in there alone. we are supposed to

be operating under a u.n. resolution. we didit without any of our allies that helped in the gulf. clinton: senator dole has two or three timesbefore tonight criticized me for working with the u.n. now i'm being criticized for notworking with the u.n. dole: it's not the u.n. clinton: sometimes the united states has toact alone or at least has to act first. sometimes we cannot let other countries have a vetoon our foreign policy. i could not send soldiers into the north of iraq, that would have beenwrong. it could reduce saddam hussein's abilities to threaten kuwait and his other neighborsagain. that's what i did. i still believe

it was the right thing to do. lehrer: senator dole, on your photo-op foreignpolicy charge against the president -- dole: not mine. lehrer: oh, no, no. i mean your charge againstthe president, that he has a photo-op foreign policy. does the middle east summit last weekfall into that category? dole: well, there were some good pictures,but does it fall into that category? i don't know. i want to be very serious. i've supportedthe president when i thought he was right on bosnia. i supported him on nafta and gatt.so it's not that we always disagree. others disagreed with us.

the mideast is very difficult. but it seemedto me just as an observer that you know before you'd call somebody to america, you'd havesome notion what the end result might be. now maybe it's better just to get togetherand sit down and talk. maybe that was the purpose. and i know talks have started againtoday. but again it's almost like an ad hoc foreign policy. it's ad hoc, it's sort ofwe get up in the morning and read the papers, what country's in trouble, we'll have a meeting. now, to me that's not the strategy that ithink people expect from america. i think we have lost credibility, and i say this veryhonestly without any partisanship. we've lost credibility around the world. our allies know,-- they're not certain what we're going to

do, what our reaction, what our response isgoing to be. nobody suggested sending troops to iraq, if that was the hint there from thepresident. but i do think that saddam hussein is stronger than he was. and i do believethat we didn't gain a great deal in the mideast by bringing three of the four leaders, onerefused to come, to washington d.c. clinton: we have a very consistent policyin the middle east: it is to support the peace process; to support the security of israel;and to support those who are prepared to take risks for peace. it is a very difficult environment.the feelings are very strong. there are extremists in all parts of the middle east who want tokill that peace process. prime minister rabin gave his life because someone in his own countryliterally hated him for trying to bring peace.

i would like to have had a big, organizedsummit, but those people were killing each other, rapidly, innocent arab children, innocentisraeli people, they were dying. and there is ,so much trust has broken down in the aftermathof the change of government. i felt that if i could just get the parties together to saylet's stop the violence, start talking, commit to the negotiations, that would be a plus. now today the secretary of state is in themiddle east and they've started negotiations and all those leaders promised me they wouldnot quit until they resolved the issues between them and got the peace process going forwardagain. dole: well, i was disappointed. the presidenthas not called for an unconditional end to

the violence. it seemed to me the violencestopped when these leaders came to america. the killing and tragedies had taken place.and it is unfortunate, it is a difficult area, no doubt about it. it shouldn't be politicizedin any way by the president or by his opponent. and i don't intend to politicize it. i hopethey talked and i hope they've reached some result and that the killing will end. clinton: thank you. lehrer: mr. president, in your acceptancespeech in chicago, you said the real choice in this race is, quote, whether we build abridge to the future or a bridge to the past; about whether we believe our best days arestill out there or our best days are behind

us; about whether we want a country of peopleall working together or one where you're on your own, end quote. are you saying that youbelieve senator dole is a man of the past and if elected president he would lead thecountry backward? clinton: well, i'm saying that senator dolesaid in his fine speech in san diego that he wanted to build a bridge to the past. andi think i know what he meant by that. he's troubled, as i am, by some of the things thatgo on today. but i believe america is the greatest country in human history becausewe have maintained freedom and increasing prosperity by relentlessly pushing the barriersof knowledge, the barriers of the present, always moving into the future. that's whywhen i became president i was determined to

kind of move beyond this whole stale debatethat had gone on in washington for too long to get this country moving again. and that'swhy we've got a country with ten and a half million more jobs, and record numbers of newbusinesses, and rising incomes, and falling crime rates, and welfare roll rates. that'swhy we're moving in the right direction. and i'm trying to emphasize that what i want todo is to continue to do that. that's why my balanced budget plan will still invest andgrow this economy. that's why i want a tax cut for education and child rearing, but it'sgot to be paid for. that's why i want to continue the work we have done over partisan opposition,to work with communities to bring that crime rate down until our streets are all safe again.these are my commitments. i am very oriented

toward the future. i think this election hasto be geared toward the future. i think america's best days are still ahead, but we've got tobuild the right bridge. dole: you know, the president reminds me sometimesof my brother kenny, who is no longer alive. but kenny was a great talker. and he usedto tell me things that i knew were not quite accurate. so we always had a rule, we dividedby six. maybe in your case maybe just two. but 11 million new jobs and everything, imean the president can't take credit for everything that governors are doing, whether that's happeningin new york city when it comes to the murder rate and then not be responsible for the badthings that happen, whether it's drug use or something else in america. so it seemsto me that we can talk about what we call

kenny, the great exaggerator. he just likedto make it sound exager, a little better, made him feel better. when it comes to bridges, i want a bridgeto the future. i also want a bridge to the truth. we have to tell the truth. we've gotpeople watching tonight and listening tonight trying to find the truth. and the truth is,there is a lot wrong with america. we need a strong economic package; we need a tax cut;we need the $500 child credit, and we'll have that soon. clinton: i do not for a moment think i'm entitledto all the credit for all the good things that have happened in america. but where ihave moved to work with the american people

to help them have the tools to make the mostof their own lives, i think i should get some credit for that. i also personally took responsibility tonightwhen senator dole asked me about the drug problem. but, you know, i think my ideas arebetter for the future. senator dole voted against student loans,against headstart, against creating the department of education. if he gets elected president,we'll start the new century without anyone in the cabinet of the president representingeducation in our children. i personally don't think that's the right kind of future foramerica, and i think we ought to take a different tack.

lehrer: senator dole, do you still favor eliminatingthe department of education. dole: yes. i didn't favor it when it was in,started. i voted against it. it was a tribute after president carter's election to the nationaleducation association who send a lot of delegates to the democratic convention, who gives 99.5percent of their money, democrat democrats, and the president, and a lot of the teacherssend their kids to private schools or better public schools. so what we want to do is calledopportunity scholarships. now, some say, oh, you're a republican, you can't be reachingout to these people. i've reached out to people all my life. i've worked on the food stampprogram, proudly. and the wic program, and the school lunch program with senators likegeorge mcgovern, hubert humphrey and others,

to name a few of my democratic friends. i'm not some extremist out here. i care aboutpeople. i have my own little foundation that's raised about $10 million for the disabled.i don't advertise it. just did, haven't before. and i try to do a lot of things that i thinkmight be helpful to people. so it seems to me that we ought to take thatmoney we can save from the department of education, put it into opportunity scholarships and telllittle landale shakespeare out in cleveland, ohio, and tell your mother and father, you'regoing to get to go to school because we're going to match what the state puts up, andyou're going to go to the school of your choice. i don't fault the president or the vice presidentfor sending their children to private schools

or better schools. i applaud them for it,i don't criticize them. but why shouldn't everybody have that choice. why shouldn'tlow income americans and low middle income americans. i'm excited about it. it's goingto be a big, big opportunity for a lot of people. clinton: let me say first of all, i'm allfor students having more choices. we've worked hard to expand public school choice in mybalanced budget bill. there's funds for 3,000 new schools created by teachers and parents,sometimes by business people, called charter schools that have no rules, they're free ofbureaucracy and can only stay in existence if they perform and teach children. the onesthat are out there are doing well.

what i'm against is senator dole's plan totake money away from all the children we now help with limited federal funds and help farfewer. if we're going to have a private voucher fund, that ought to be done at the local levelor the state level. but senator dole has consistently opposed federal help to education. he votedagainst student loans; he voted against my improved student loan plan; he voted againstthe national service bill, against the headstart bill; he voted against our efforts in safeand drug-free schools. he voted against these programs, he does not believe it. that's theissue. 90 percent of our kids are out there in those public schools and we need to lifttheir standards and move them forward with the programs like those i've outlined in thiscampaign.

dole: i'd better correct the president. idon't know what time it is, but it's probably getting late. i want to correct, the all thesethings i voted against, they were probably part of some big package that had a lot ofpork in it or a lot of things that we shouldn't have had and we probably voted no. i've supportedall the education programs. i've supported headstart, i think we ought to look at it.so i don't want anybody out there to think we've just been voting no, no, no. let's givelow income parents the same right that people of power and prestige have in america andlet them go to better schools. let's not, let's help, let's turn the schools back tothe teachers and back to the parents and take it away from the national education association.

lehrer: mr. president, what is wrong withthe school choice proposal? clinton: i support school choice. i supportschool choice. i have advocated expansions of public school choice alternatives and isaid the creation of 3,000 new schools that we are going to help the states to finance.but if you're going to have a private voucher plan, that ought to be determined by statesin localities where they're raising and spending most of the money. i simply think it's wrong to take money awayfrom programs that are helping build basic skills for kids, 90 percent of them are inthe public schools; to take money away from programs that are helping fund the schoollunch program, that are helping to fund the

other programs, that are helping our schoolsto improve their standards. our schools are getting better, and our schools can be madeto be even better still with the right kind of community leadership and partnership atthe school level. i have been a strong force for reform. and,senator, i remind you that a few years ago when i supported teacher testing while inmy home state i was pretty well lambasted by the teachers association. i just don'tbelieve we ought to be out there running down teachers and attacking them the way you didat the republican convention. i think we ought to be lifting them up and moving our childrenforward. and let me just say that budget that you passedthat i vetoed would have cut 50,000 kids out

of headstart. it would have eliminated theamericorps plan and it would have cut back on student loans and scholarships. now, itwould have. that's a fact. that's one of the big reasons i vetoed it. we need to be doingmore in education, not less. dole: well, the americorps program, i mustsay, if that's one of your successes, i wouldn't speak about it too loudly. it costs about$27,000 to pay people to volunteer. we've got four million young people volunteeringevery year, the number hasn't gone down. and you pick out 20,000, whether they need themoney or not, and they get paid for volunteering. i like young people. i like teachers. i'ma product of a public school. you attended a private school for some time in your life.i like teachers. you're not for school choice,

you can't be for school choice, because thisis that special interest money again. when you get 99.5 percent of the money, we don'tknow what happened to the other .5 percent, we're looking for it, somebody got it, butit all went to democrats. and this is part of that liberal establishment, one of thoseliberal things that you just can't do. you're for school uniforms and curfews and you'reopposed to truancy. now that's not reform, mr. president. why can't landale shakespearein cleveland or pilar gonzales in milwaukee give their children an opportunity to go toa better school. some schools aren't safe. some schools aren't even safe. your choiceis nothing. let's give them a real choice, the kind of choice you had, and the kind ofchoice a lot of people have in america. if

we want to stop crime and teenage pregnancy,let's start with education. clinton: first of all, senator dole, let'sset the record straight. i was able for two years when i was in, a very young boy to goto a catholic school, but i basically went to public schools all my life. and i've workedhard for a long time to make them better, 90 percent of our kids are there. you, it'samazing to me, you are all for having more responsibility at the local level for everythingexcept schools. where we don't have very much money at the federal level to spend on education,we ought to spend it helping the 90 percent of the kids that we can help. if a local schooldistrict in cleveland or anyplace else wants to have a private choice plan like milwaukeedid, let them have at it. i might say the

results are highly ambiguous. but i want toget out there and give a better education opportunity to all of our children and that'swhy i vetoed the budget you passed with $30 billion in education cuts. it was wrong, andmy plan for the future is better. lehrer: senator dole, at the republican conventionyou said the following and i quote, it is demeaning to the nation that within the clintonadministration a core of the elite who never grew up, never did anything real, never sacrificed,never suffered, and never learned should have the power to fund with your earnings theirdubious and self-serving schemes, end quote. whom precisely and what precisely did youhave in mind? dole: i had precisely in mind a lot of thepeople that were in the white house and other

agencies who've never been had any experience,who came to washington without any experience, they all were very liberal, of course, orthey wouldn't be in the administration. and their idea was that they knew what was bestfor the american people. now, i feel very strongly about a lot of things.i feel strongly about education. i want to help young people have an education, justas i had an education after world war ii with the gi bill of rights. we've had millionsof young men and women in subsequent subsequent wars change the face of the nation becausethe government helped with their education. now the reason they don't have, the reasonthe president can't support this is pretty obvious. it's not taking anything away fromschools, it's new money. it's not being taken

away from anybody else, except we'll downsizethe department of education. but this is a very liberal administration. this is an administrationthat gave you the big tax cut. this administration tried to take over healthcare and impose agovernmental system. this is the administration that fought regulatory reform that is puttinga lot of small businessmen and small businesswomen out of business. this is the administrationthat fought the balanced budget amendment and vetoed a balanced budget and vetoed welfarereform twice, and the list goes on and on and on, that's what i had in mind. i want people in my administration and willhave people in my administration who understand america. there won't be 10 millionaires and14 lawyers in the cabinet. there will be people

with experience and people who understandamerica and people who've made it and know the hard knocks in life. clinton: when senator dole made that remarkabout all the elitists, all the young elitists in the administration, one of the young menwho works for me who grew up in a house trailer looked at me and said, mr. president, i knowhow you grew up, who is he talking about. and you know this liberal charge, that's whattheir party always dragsout when they get in a tight race. it's sort of their goldenoldie, you know. it's a record they think they can play that everybody loves to hear.and i just don't think that dog will hunt this time.

the american people should make up their ownmind. here's the record: we cut deficit four years in a row for the first time before thecivil war -- i mean, before world war ii, and maybe before the civil war, too. we'vegot ten and a half million new jobs; we've got record numbers of those new small businesses.we've made every one of them eligible for a tax cut. we've got declining crime rates,two million fewer people on welfare rolls before welfare reform passed, and a 50 percentincrease in child support and a crime bill with 60 death penalties and 100,000 policeand the assault weapons ban. the american people can make up their mind about whetherthat's a liberal record or a record that's good for america. liberal, conservative, youput whatever label you want on it.

dole: well, i think it's pretty liberal, i'llput that label on it. you take a look at all the programs you've advocated, mr. president.thank goodness we had a republican congress there. the first thing you did when you cameinto office was set up the stimulus package, said we've got a little pork we want to scatteraround america, $16 billion. and even some in your own party couldn't buy that. i remember talking about by the telephone.i'm not even certain you were too excited about that. i won't, i never repeat what i'vetalked to the president about. in any event, we saved the taxpayers $16 billion. and thencame some other program, and then came healthcare, and then came the tax increase and a lot ofthese things stopped in 1994 because then

the congress changed, and i think we've donea good job. lehrer: mr. president, if you're not a liberal,describe your political philosophy. clinton: i believe that the purpose of politicsis to give people the tools to make the most of their own lives; to reinforce the valuesof opportunity and responsibility, and to build a sense of community so we're all workingtogether. i don't believe in discrimination. i believe you can protect the environmentand grow the economy. i believe that we have to do these things with a government that'ssmaller and less bureaucratic, but that we have to do them nonetheless. it's inconvenient for senator dole, but thetruth is i've reduced the size of government

more than my republican predecessors. andi did stop them, i admit that. i sure stopped their budget. their budget cut enforcementfor the environmental protection agency by a third. it cut funds to clean up toxic wastedumps with 10 million of our kids still living within four miles of a toxic waste dump, bya third. it ended the principle that the polluters should pay for those toxic waste dumps unlessit was very recent. their budget weakened our support for education. $30 billion, evencut funds for scholarships and college loans. their budget cut $270 billion in medicareand, finally, their budget withdrew the national guarantee of healthcare to poor children,families with children with handicaps, the elderly in nursing homes, poor pregnant women.it was wrong for the country and calling it

conservative won't make it right. it was abad decision for america and would have been bad for our future if i hadn't stopped it. dole: well, the president can define himselfin any way he wants, but i think we have to look at the record. go back to the time hewas, what, texas director for george mcgovern. george mcgovern is a friend of mine, so idon't mean, but he was a liberal, proud liberal. i've just finished reading a book, i thinkit's called -- what is it called, what is it, the demise of the democratic party byronald cardash (ph) or something talking about all the liberal influences in the administration.whether it's organized labor or whether it's the hollywood elite or whether some of themedia elite or whether it's the labor unions

or whatever. and so i think you take a lookat it. the bottom line is this: i think the american people, thought he'd recite all thesebills and all these things, they want to know what's going to happen to them. they've allgot a lot of anxieties out there. did anybody complain when you raised taxes? did anybodygo out and ask the people, how are you going to pay the extra money? that's why we wantan economic package. we want the government to pinch their pennies for a change insteadof the people pinching their pennies. that's what our message is to the people. not allthis back and forth, you voted this way, you voted that way, we want a better america aswe go into the next century. clinton: the way you get a better americais to balance the budget and protect medicare,

medicaid, education and the environment; togive a targeted tax cut -- and let me talk about the education tax cut -- to let peoplehave a $10,000 deduction for the cost of college tuition in any year, any kind of college tuition;to give families a tax credit, a dollar for dollar reduction in their taxes for the costof a typical community college so we can open that to everybody. and then to let peoplesave in an ira and withdraw from it without a tax penalty for education, home buying ormedical expenses, that's the right way to go into the 21st century, balance the budgetand cut taxes, not balloon with this $550 billion tax scheme. lehrer: senator dole, we've talked mostlynow about differences between the two of you

that relate to policy issues and that sortof thing. are there also significant differences in the more personal area that are relevantto this election? dole: let me say first, on the president'spromise for another tax cut. i mean, i've told people as i've traveled around, all ofyou that got the tax cut he promised last time, vote for him in '96 and not many handsgo up. so the question is, would you buy a used election promise from my opponent. thepeople want economic reform. they're having a hard time making ends meet. you've got oneparent working for the government, the other parent working for the family. this is aboutimportant business. this is about getting the economy moving again. this is about americanjobs and opportunities. it's about the government,

as i said before, pinching its pennies fora change instead of the poor taxpayer. when they raise your taxes nobody runs around askingpeople where are you going to get the extra money. i think the government can do better.are there personal differences? lehrer: that are relevant to this. dole: well, my blood pressure is lower, myweight, my cholesterol, but i will not make health an issue in this campaign. so i thinkhe's a bit taller than i am. but i think there are personal differences. i mean, i'm noti don't like to get into personal matters. as far as i'm concerned, this is a campaignabout issues. it's about my vision for america and about his liberal vision for america.and not about personal things. you know, i

think his liberal vision is a thing of thepast. i know he wants to disown it. i wouldn't want to be a liberal either, mr. president,but you're stuck with it because that's your record, that's your record in arkansas: thebiggest tax increase in history. the biggest crime increase in history, the biggest drugincrease in history in arkansas. clinton: well, just for the record, when iwas governor we had the lowest -- second lowest tax burden of any state in the country, thehighest job growth rate when i ran for president and were widely recognized for a lot of otheradvances. but the important thing is, what are we goingto do now. i think a targeted tax cut is better for our future, targeted to education andchild rearing, with the rest of the education

plan, hooking up all of our classrooms tothe internet by the year 2000. making sure we've got an army of reading volunteers, trainedpeople to teach with parents and teachers so that our eight year old can learn to read.investing in our environment. cleaning up two-thirds of the worst toxic waste dumps.those plans are better than this $550 billion tax scheme. now, remember, folks, even senator dole'scampaign co-chair here, senator d'amato, says he's got to cut medicare to pay for this.everybody who's looked at it, 500 economists, seven nobel prize winners, say it's bad forthe economy. it's going to blow a hole in the deficit it's going to raise taxes on ninemillion people and require bigger cuts than

the one i vetoed. our plan is better, it willtake us into the future with a growing economy and healthier families. dole: well, i'm really encouraged to knowof your renewed friendship with al d'amato, and i know he appreciates it. you didn't evenhave tax cuts in your budget, mr. president, the first two years you were president. itwasn't until we had a republican congress you even thought about, you talked about taxcuts. getting back to personal differences, i think, jim, if you are a little more specific,but i think the president could clarify one thing tonight and that's the question of pardons.i know you talked about it on the jim, with jim lehrer on the pbs show. and i've neverdiscussed whitewater, as i've told you personally.

i'm not discussing whitewater now. but i amdiscussing the power the president has to grant pardons. and hopefully in the next segmentyou could lay that to rest. clinton: well, first of all, you know, hemade that remark about senator d'amato. he's arranged for me to spend a lot more time withsenator d'amato in the last couple years so i'm more familiar with his comments than iused to be. let's me say what i've said already about this pardon issue. this is an issuethey've brought up. it's under, there's been no consideration of it, no discussion of it.i will tell you this: i will not give anyone special treatment and i will strictly adhereto the law. and that is what every president has done, as far as i know, in the past butwhat every other president's has done. this

is something i take seriously and that's myposition. dole: but it seems to me the president shouldn'thave any comment at all. particularly where it's someone where you've had business dealings.i mean, you may be sending a signal. i don't know, i'm not questioning anybody. but as a president of the united states, whensomebody asks you about pardons, you say no comment, period. and i think he made a mistake.and i think when you make a mistake, you say i made a mistake. but apparently his positionhasn't changed. if there are other specific areas, but beyond that i haven't gotten intoany of these things, as the president knows. we've had that discussion. and again i knowsenator d'amato i think may have had a hearing

or two on whitewater, i can't remember, buthe's not my general chairman, he's a friend of mine. and so is senator kennedy a friendof yours. clinton: you bet. dole: i remember one day on the floor i saidnow, gentlemen, let me tax your memories, and kennedy jumped up and said, why haven'twe thought of that before. you know, so one of your liberal friends. clinton: no comment. dole: what's the subject matter? lehrer: senator dole, if you could singleout one thing that you would like for the

voters to have in their mind about presidentclinton on a policy matter or a personal matter, what would it be? something to know abouthim, understand it and appreciate it. dole: see, if i say anything it's going tobe misconstrued. i don't think there is even a race between the two, it's about our visionfor america. i happen to like president clinton personally.i'm addressing him all evening as mr. president. i said in 1992 he didn't extend that courtesyto president bush. but i respect the presidency. i've served under a number of presidents.they all have their strengths and they all have their weaknesses. so i'd rather talkabout my strengths. and i think i have my strengths and i think the best thing goingfor bob dole is that bob dole keeps his word.

it's a question between trust and fear, andi would say, i think, mr. president, about all you've got going in this campaign is fear. you're spending millions and millions of dollarsin negative ads frightening senior citizens. i know this to be a fact because i had onetell me last week, senator don't cut my medicare. i'm trying to save your medicare, just asi rescued social security with a bipartisan commission. i have relatives on medicare.i used to sign welfare checks for my grandparents. i know all about poverty and all about needand all about taking care of people, and that's been my career in the united states senate. and i'll keep my word on the economic package.if i couldn't cut taxes and balance the budget

the same time, i wouldn't look at you in theeye in your living room or wherever you might be and say that this is good for america.people will tell you who served with bob dole, agree or disagree, he kept his word. that'swhat this race is all about. clinton: i'd like the american people to knowthat i have worked very hard to be on their side. and to move this country forward andwe're better off than we were four years ago. but the most important thing is my plan forthe 21st century is a better plan. a targeted tax cut, a real commitment to educationalreform. a deep commitment to making welfare reform work with incentives to the privatesector to move people from welfare to work. now we have to create those jobs, now thatwe're requiring people to go do work.

a commitment to continuing step-by-step healthcarereform with the next step helping people who are between jobs to access healthcare andnot lose it just because they are out of work for a while. a commitment to grow the economywhile protecting the environment. that's what i'd like them to know about me; that i'vegotten up every day and worked for the american people and worked so that their children couldhave their dreams come true. and i believe we've got the results to showwe're on the right track. the most important thing is, i believe we've got the right ideasfor the future. and i like, i like senator dole, you can probably tell we like each other.we just see the world in different ways. and you folks out there are going to have to choosewho you think is right.

dole: well, i'd say the first homeless billin the senate was the dole-byrd byrd-dole bill, i can't remember who was in controlthen. i remember working with senator ribicoff from connecticut on the hospice program. wenow have 2500 hospices. as i said, i've worked all my life when i was in the congress. ileft on june 11th because i wanted the american people to know that i was willing to giveup something. president clinton ran for governor in 1990and said he's going to fill out his term, but he didn't. he's president so i guess it'sa little better deal. but i wanted the american people to know i was willing to give up something.i wasn't just getting more power and more power. so i rolled the dice, i put my careeron the line because i really believe the future

of america is on the line. we can give you all these numbers, they don'tmean a thing. if you are out of work, you have nothing to eat or you can't have medicalcare, or you're holding a crack baby in your arms right now, what do you do next? you know,america's best days are ahead of us. i've seen the tough times, i know they can be betterand i'll lead america to a brighter future. lehrer: mr. president, what do you say tosenator dole's point that this election is about keeping one's word? clinton: let's look at that. when i ran forpresident, i said we'd cut the deficit in half in four years; we cut it by 60 percent.i said that our economic plan would produce

eight million jobs, we have ten and a halfmillion new jobs. we're number one in autos again, record numbers of new small businesses.i said we'd put, pass a crime bill that would put 100,000 police on the street, ban assaultweapons, and deal with the problems that ought to be dealt with with capital punishment,including capital punishment for drug kingpins, and we did that. i said we would change the way welfare works,and even before the bill passed we'd moved nearly two million people from welfare towork, working with states and communities. i said we'd get tougher with child supportand child support enforcement's up 50 percent. i said that i would work for tax relief formiddle class americans. the deficit was bigger

than i thought it was going to be. i thinkthey're better off, all of us are, that we got the interest rates down and the deficitdown. republicans talk about it, but we're the firstthe first administration in anybody's lifetime looking at this program to bring that deficitdown four years in a row. we still gave tax cuts to 15 million working americans, andnow i've got a plan that's been out there for two years, it could have been passed already,but instead the republicans shut the government down to try to force their budget and theirplan on me, and i couldn't take that. but we'll get the rest of that tax relief. andso i think when you look at those results, you know the plan i've laid out for the futurehas a very good chance of being enacted if

you'll give me a chance to build that bridgeto the 21st century. dole: well, there he goes again, that linehas been used before, i mean, exaggerating all the things that he did. he didn't do allthese things. let's take all these four years in a row. he came in with a high growth rate,the 1990 budget agreement, which some, you know, didn't like, had some very tough costcontrols, put a lot of pressure on congress. the s & l crisis was over, they're startingto sell assets, all that money was coming in. and he cut defense an extra $60 billion,threw a lot of people out of work. he talks about a smaller government. thereare actually more people in government except for people in defense related jobs. they'regone. the government's bigger than it was

when president kennedy was around, even thoughhe says it's not. in addition, republican congress cut $53 billion. so let's just, let'sgive credit where credit is due. governor engler of michigan cut taxes 21 times, createda lot of new jobs. so did governor thompson, so did governor rowland. a lot of people oughtto deserve credit, mr. president. when i'm president of the united states we're goingto have a governors' council and we're going to work directly with the governors to getpower back to the people and back to the states. clinton: i think a lot of people deserve creditand i've tried to give it to them. but i believe that my plan is better than senator dole'sill-advised $550 billion scheme which i'll say again will blow a hole in the deficit.our plan will balance the budget, grow the

economy, preserve the environment, and investin education. we have the right approach for the future and looks at the results. it isnot midnight in america, senator. we are better off than we were four years ago. lehrer: all right. that's the last question,the last answer. let's go now to the closing statements. mr. president, you're first. twominutes. clinton: well, first, jim, let me thank youand thank you, senator dole, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, all of you listeningtonight for the chance you've given us to appear. i want to say in the beginning that i am profoundlygrateful for the chance that you have given

me to serve as president for the last fouryears. i never could have dreamed anything like this would come my way in life, and i'vedone my best to be faithful to the charge you've given me. i'm proud of the fact that america is strongerand more prosperous and more secure than we were four years ago. and i'm glad we're goingin the right direction. and i've done my best tonight to lay out my plans for going forwardto an even better future in the next century. i'd like to leave you with the thought thatthe things i do as president are basically driven by the people whose lives i have seenaffected by what does or doesn't happen in this country. the auto worker in toledo whowas unemployed when i was elected and now

has a great job because we're number one inauto production again. all the people i've met who used to be on welfare who are nowworking and raising their children. and i think what others could do for our countryand themselves if we did the welfare reform thing in the proper way. i think of the manwho grabbed me by the shoulder once with tears in his eyes and said his daughter was dyingof cancer and he thanked me for giving him a chance to spend some time with her withoutlosing his job because of the family and medical leave act. i think of all the people i grewup with and went to school with and who i stay in touch with and who nerve let me forgethow what we do in washington affects all of you in america. folks, we can build that bridgeto the 21st century, big enough and strong

enough for all of us to walk across, and ihope you will help me build it. lehrer: senator dole, your closing statement,sir. dole: thank you, jim; thank you, mr. president;thank everyone for watching and listening. i want to address my remarks to the youngpeople of america, because they're the ones that are going to spend most of their lifein the 21st century. they're the ones who have the challenges and they are people outthere making predictions that it's not going to be the same. you're not going to have theopportunities; there are going to be more deficits, more drugs, more crime, and lessconfidence in the american people. and that's what you're faced with, the parents are facedwith, and the grand parents are faced with.

it's important, it's their future. and i wouldsay to those i know there are more young people experimenting with drugs today than ever before;drug use has gone up. and if you care about the future of america, if you care about yourfuture, just don't do it. and i know that i'm someone older than you. but i've had myanxious moments in my life. i've learned to feed myself and to walk and to dress. i'mstanding here as proof that in america the possibilities are unlimited. i know who iam, and i know where i'm from, and i know where i want to take america. we are the greatestcountry on the face of the earth. we do more good things for more people in our communities,our neighborhoods, than anywhere that i know of. this is important business. this electionis important. i ask for your support, i ask

for your help. and if you really want to getinvolved, just tap into my home page, www.dolekemp96.org. thank you. god bless america.