performance review training activities

>> good afternoon, ladies andgentlemen, welcome to the capital funds green physicalneeds assessment training, gpna for hud field offices,this is our second session, eye name is bill thorson,i'll be your moderating, with me, bruce ryder from theoffice of capital improvement, he will provideus with opening remarks. >> thank you for joining ustoday for this continuation of the training on thephysical needs assessment and using the gpna tool, thefirst webcast on november 14

is on the archives at hud atwork, and in addition, there was a webcast that we did onjanuary 10th for housing authorities and vendors andthat's also posted for your 2 information.this webcast is, as i said, a continuation of the previousone. it's appropriate for fieldoffice staff that will be working most closely with thehousing authorities and vendors on the nuts and boltsof the tool, the process, and the occasional complexcircumstance.

i want to take thisopportunity to also thank those field offices that haveset up points of contact for gpna questions and who letyou know who those folks are. as bill will be reviewinglater in more detail, housing authority and vendorquestions on the physical needs assessment and the toolwill come to your field offices.those inquiries that you're not able to handle should besent by your office to hud pna at hud.gov, that e-mailaddress that's been set up

for field offices to sendtheir questions in is hud pna at hud.gov.when you send the questions there, they will be reviewedand answers will be provided to you, that you can thenshare with your questioner. in this way, you at the fieldoffices will be kept in the loop of what information isout there, what your pha clients are hearing, andyou'll benefit from the technical assistance as well.with regard to the progress of the pna rule, i have goodnews and bad news depending

upon your perspective.the rule remains in its 3 holding pattern behind thelarger capital fund rule that you'll see very shortly asfinal. the impact of the pace offinal rules coming out is that at this point, it isincreasingly likely that the first pn as will not be dueuntil december 1st for those with fiscal year-end of march31st. >> and we'll go over that inmore detail. >> bill will review thattiming as well.

the takeaway here is thatwe're getting plenty of time to get acquainted with this,and for those that are so inclined, to get a good starton it. in fact we have had a numberof housing authorities already making their finalsubmissions on the gpna. so during the presentationhere, as bill is talking, we'll have a question andanswer, a couple of question and answer sessions as we go,but at any point in the process, you can e-mail aquestion to hud pna at

hud.gov, and i have themonitor here and will be able to collect those questionsand we'll get to as many as we can during the questionand answer sessions. so with that, i'll return theprogram to bill. >> thank you, bruce.the things that i would share with you now is that it'simportant for the field offices, and we're hopingthat you folks will begin to embrace this whole process --bruce has contractors 4 providing technicalassistance to help us get up

and running right now,contractors, by definition, have a shelf life.they will go away. when the contractors go away,guess who's got the con? it's the field office staff.you men and women in the field offices, you are goingto be the ones that people will go to to ask questions,to try to figure this stuff out, get answers and makesure the system works, the green pna is i think one ofthose things that is here to stay, and so we need to bethinking about it, thinking

about how we can roll it outand make it work for both the housing authorities and hudas well. so having said that, let'stalk a minute about what we're going to go over forthe next three, four, five, six hours.that was a joke. sort of!>> we'll talk about an overview, a shortened, acondensed version of what we talked about yesterday on the14th. not everybody was on the 14thwebcast, so we want to just

recap that.we'll talk more and more about the implementation,more than we did before, in terms of what you folks willbe up against, the types of things that will be coming into you, so we can get you up to speed in terms of whatyour responsibilities are. at that point, we'll take abreak, a couple of minutes. 5 we'll come back, allow youfolks to ask questions and answers, and the web addressto send those questions and answers are -- tell me again.>> hud pna.

>> hud pna at hud.gov, somake sure you write that down.as we're going through the presentation, write yourquestions down, fire them off, bruce has them here,he'll be able to answer those.we'll take a break after the questions and answers andstart to get into a session about getting ready for thepna and what your field office can do to do that.after that, we'll have a demo of the gpna software.a little more expansive than

we had last time.the visual, i think, on the screen that you're going tobe watching today aren't as good as we would hope forthem to be, but they show up a lot better on the webcast.that's why it's important for you folks to look at thewebcast and encourage housing authorities to look at thewebcast that we're doing specifically for them thatare posted over on youtube. once we finish the gpa demowe'll take another quick 5-minute break and do somefinal questions and answers.

so having said that, we'llmove right into the overview. we talked about the processon the 14th. big ticket item in terms ofyour understanding of the whole process is that at themoment, we have three 6 separate rules that governthe capital fund, specifically, the developmentregs, cfr92041, which is applicable dark the cap andcomp grant program regulation, 24cfr968.parts of those are still applicable today.and then we have the capital

fund rule 24cfr9o5 whichincludes the obligations, expenditures, capital fundfinancing. we also tangentially have theplan rule that affects the fund, 24cfr9l3 and generalprovisions at 24cfr965, that includes, amongst otherthings, a requirement that housing authorities do energyaudits once every five years and incorporatecost-effective energy conservation measures intotheir capital planning activities.so this has actually been

around for more than a coupleof years. so that the next question iswhat's coming down the pike. in 2010, and 2011, hudpublished three separate proposed rules.rule number one is a consolidated 905, which isgoing to take the existing 905, which has the formula,eligible expenses, obligations and expenditures,as well as the capital fund financing information, androll it in to the applicable parts of cap and comp grant,in other words, we'll talk

about the eligible expenses,we will have the -- i'm drawing a blank right now --environmental procurement 7 requirements, close outrequirements, all that stuff is going to be merged into asingle reg. so you have the consolidatedrule, which is one rule, rule number two is a separatedistinct proposed rule on the physical needs assessmentitself. that was publishedseparately. that goes into more detailthan what was in the original

proposed rule.the third piece is to take the requirement for theenergy audit, this in 965, and move it over to thecapital fund, so we'll have one integrated, consolidatedrule that's going to cover all of these issues in oneplace. so it will make life a lotsimpler and get rid of some of the material that's 20,maybe even 30 years old at this juncture and that is nolonger applicable. from there, i want to talk alittle bit about the pna

itself, the requirements ofthe pna. all housing authorities,regardless of size, have to have a pna because you're aqualified housing authority, you're not going to beexempt. housing authorities will havea pna that is going to be at the project-based level,project amp level, as well as summary information, becausewe want to be able to support the whole notion and theimplementation of asset-based management.so we will have backlog and 8

accrual figures on eachindividual amp so, that it helps the housing authoritymake better decisions relative to their individualprojects, because you have to really think about not justyour physical inventory, but as well as your operatingissues, like whether or not it's cash flowing, whether ornot it's occupied, and the reasons for that.so you need all of that as part of your analyticprocess. from there, the greenphysical needs assessment is

going to require a look atthe physical needs over a 20-year period, so this way,we'll be able to see that the roof that was installed 15years ago is going to need to be in the ideal replaced infive years. so this is going to give youthe information to enable you and the housing authority toknow what kind of physical improvements you need now,and what are coming up over the next 20 years.as we all know our capital fund, acc, it has a 20-yearlife cycle on it, and so it's

important to be able to coverall of your costs for the next 20 years.the physical needs assessment will be conducted withoutregard to the actual total backlog that is showing inthe pna itself, and part of the reason is that you needto know what those costs are. even though you may not haveenough funding. it's the ability to be ableto recognize what the total 9 costs are, and the lack offunding that drives you to your strategic decisions interms of what am i going to

do with my inventory, giventhis phenomenon that i'm now seeing and where am i goingto get the funds to do what i want to do.and so it's all a part of the analytic process that ahousing authority needs to go through in analyzing itsportfolio and deciding what its mission and goals are, asit moves forward in the outyears.the cost of the physical needs assessment will be aneligible capital fund expense.the regulations says that it

will be done in the form andmanner as prescribed by hud. that gives us a lot offlexibility in terms of creating the physical needsassessment tool, and we don't have to put it in the reg andgo through it every time a reg change every time we wantto make a change to the physical needs assessment.so that physical needs assessment is going to be, asthe title of this course is called, the green physicalneeds assessment, and we have it built in a set of softwarewhich is on our website, the

pna website itself.so that's an important characteristic of the pna.this one, you're going to have to pay pretty closeattention to in terms of when the physical needs assessmentis going to kick in. you have to think about thisin two phases: phase number 10 one has to do with the factthat the pna will not kick in until the final rule thatbruce was talking about kicks in.and so what the regulation says is that the rule willnot become effective until

120 days after the effectivedate of the final rule. think about that.you publish a final rule on day one, it becomes effective30 days later, and so the first pnas are due 120 daysafter that point. so that's part one.part two has to do with the individual housingauthorities, their physical needs assessment is going tobe due to hud 120 days prior to the end of their fiscalyear. >> that gets a littlecomplicated so i'm going to

give you a slide here to giveyou a sense in terms of what all of those are due.this slide will ultimately be posted on our website but itgives you a sense of when all this stuff is kicking in.you can see it's done by fiscal year, so that themarch 31st housing authorities will be due ondecember 1st, that's 120 days before the beginning of thefiscal year, the june 30th housing authorities will bedue on march second, september 30th housingauthorities will be due on

june 2nd, and thedecember 31st housing authorities will be due onseptember 1. so you only have four datesto worry about. 11 so your housing authoritiesare going to be probably pretty close to evenlydistributed, in those four quadrants, and so it'simportant that you print the schedule out so you'rekeeping track of all of your housing authorities andmaking sure that the physical needs assessment comes inwhen they are due.

i know a number of fieldoffices around the country have on their websites, orsend out newsletters, things that are coming up and comingdue, like the fas, fas financial submissions andthings like that. and so this will be a goodthing for you to put on your website to remind housingauthorities when they're supposed to submit theirphysical needs assessments. so so how does this work?we're going to give you an example here, on theassumption that the final

rule is published on marchsecond. you normally have a 30-dayturnaround, so the final rule would be effective onapril 1st, 2013. one hundred twenty days fromapril 1st, 2013 would be july 30th, 2013.so the question is, which phas, based on the schedule ijust showed you, would you due after july 30th, 2013,and the answer to that, which i'm sure you already have, isthe due date for the 12/31 housing authorities, which isseptember 1st.

so if we go back on ourslide, you can see how that 12 plays in and how the 120 daysfrom the effective date also plays in.we're going to put this on our website, again, so thatyou'll be able to see it. bruce will send it out.none of this will come up as a sur price.-- surprise. but part of the takeaway hereis that you need to be tracking each of your housingauthorities, in each of those quarters, making sure thatthey're submitting their pnas

to hud when they're supposedto. so we can avoid any issues ofnoncompliance. >> if i can interject there.>> please do. >> to start the ball rolling,as soon as i have a publication date, i'll besending an e-mail to all the housing authorities, as wellas to all the field offices, setting out what timing thenbecomes. we can't tell you preciselytoday, because we don't have a -- it's all keyed to theprecise publication date.

so that will kind of be thekickoff, when you get that, that e-mail that says therule is now published, here's a copy of it, this is theschedule that it lays out. >> and i think you said onother webcast that is we've done that in the wholeregulatory scheme, even though you can't say whenit's going to come out, we're further along in the process.we're at the tail end of the process.so the rule is going to come 13 out sooner than later.we can't give you a precise

date at this juncture.>> the signal should be the capital fund rule.when you see the new capital fund rule being published,you should be looking for the pna rule, and it will be acombined rule, the pna and energy audit will all be inone rule. it would come after that.>> right. so the key here is keepwatching out for bruce's e-mail messages in terms ofthose things that are coming out relative to the pnaprocess, the gpna process, as

well as the effective date.once we know the effective date, then the rest of thisstuff is going to kick in. we're going to be remindingyou of all of this, so it's not going to go away.when we talk about the gpna, remember a couple of minutesago, i mentioned the fact that the reg says housingauthorities will submit the gpna to hud in form andmanner as prescribed by hud, and in the form and manner asprescribed by hud is the gpna software that's on ourwebsite.

the hud physical needsassessment website. so that's what they have tosubmit. all housing authorities haveto fill out the software, do the physical needsassessment, and upload that to hud, and we'll talk moreabout that in a couple of minutes.the housing authority has to 14 perform the gpna inconjunction with the energy audit.remember i talked about the fact that 965 had arequirement that they do an

energy audit once every fiveyears. you're going to do yourenergy audit and the results of your energy audit aregoing to be inputted into the gpna software, so you eitherhave to do your energy audit either before or -- or atapproximately the same time as you're doing the gpna, sothat all of this stuff is going to be be dove detailedtogether. why is that important?the energy audit relates to physical improvements thatcan reduce your housing

authority's operating costs.reduced operating costs go back to our asset management,because under asset management, our expenses haveto be less than our income. and where we can makephysical improvements that reduce energy, which isabout, what, 25 percent, plus or minus, of the housingauthority's operating budgets, that's going to givethe housing authority were wiggle room.so as we're thinking about our physical improvements,where we've identified

cost-effective energyconservation measures we need to take that intoconsideration, when the housing authority make itsdecisions in terms of what physical improvements itwants to make. 15 in terms of the rollout ofthe gpna and the energy audit, if they've alreadydone an energy audit within the last three years, we willaccept that energy audit if it was done in accordancewith the new requirements of the proposed rule that wejust talked about a couple

minutes ago.once the gpna is completed, then the housing authority,in the software, and we'll show you that later in thedemo portion of the webcast, the housing authority willhave the ability to create a data extract.the housing authority is not going to send hud 100 percentof the data that's in the gpna, only selected datapoints. the tool will create thisdata extract that will then be e-mailed to hud.once the housing authority

has completed that, thehousing authority will do an annual update once a year.it won't redo its physical -- it won't redo the pna once ayear. they'll just do an update interms of the work items that were covered in the gpna,that were completed during this current year.so we will be looking for the work item, we will be lookingfor the cost, and we will be looking for the data sourcein terms of did you use capital funds, did you usetax credit funds, that sort

of thing.so it will give everybody a sense of where the money iscoming from to make 16 improvements.that's a simple extract that gets uploaded to hud once ayear. the annual updates will -- asi mentioned, will only include the modernizationwork that they've completed. the gpna itself is notexpected to be a commitment tool.it's not expected to be like your annual statement, whereyou're submitting that to hud

and that becomes a financialstatement of the housing authority in its submissionto hud. the gpna is also going to beused once every five years in conjunction with yourfive-year and your annual plan.so think about this. we're doing our five-year phaplan and annual plan. one hundred twenty days priorto the end of fiscal year, the gpna has to be done.before that is completed, you have to finish your energyaudit.

so you do your energy audit,gpna, then your pha plan. you use the data that youreceive from the gpna, to take your decisions in termsof your mission, your goals and what do i want to use mycapital funds for, so this is a completely integratedprocess the way we've envisioned it.now, pay close attention to this because we're going tomention it now, we're going to mention it later and we'regoing to mention it several times over the next severalyears. 17

the gpna will be based on picbuilding and unit data characteristics that thehousing authority gets from hud, it will be downloadedinto the gpna software. the data has to be accurate.fits not accurate t. won't be accepted as an upload.it's very, very important that the housing authorityhave accurate data with respect to its building andunit data characteristics. the housing authority canrequest from hud the pic building and unit datacharacteristics that will be

used for their download bygoing to pha, pna, at hud.gov.housing authority goes in, requests it, submits it tohud. now, point ofsynchronization, i think i would call it.the housing authorities need to be very careful.because whatever gets downloaded from pic has to beput in the software and then it has to be reuploaded andit has to be a match. if the housing authority goesin and changes pic, in terms

of the building unit and datacharacteristics, after the download into the gpna, itwon't match. so it's very important tocounsel housing authorities not to make any changes oncethey download the pic building and unit datacharacteristics for the purposes of doing the gpnaand not changing it until that gpna is uploaded andaccepted by hud. 18 all right.so this whole issue of the pic building and unit datacharacteristics is very

important.number one, we're distributing the capital fundand the operating fund based on the pic building and unitdata characteristics, and so from an audit perspective, wewant to make sure that the information is correct, plus,it makes your gpna a more accurate and useful tool forthe housing authorities. another item for the gpnathat both you and the housing authorities need to be awareof is that the housing authority is going to have touse either commercial cost

indices or its own cost database if it hasn't to put into the tool.the tool does not have costing information in it.so the housing authority can go out and purchase it.if it uses a gpna provider or an architect or an engineerwho has already purchased the commercial cost indices, theycan use that. not a problem.it's going to be a decision of the individual housingauthority whether they want to use commercial costindices or whether they want

to use their own cost data,if they have such a cost data base.so that's going to be a staff-intensive exercise,just to load that information in there.so it's very important that housing authorities and youfolks understand that that's 19 another part of the equationthat the housing authorities will have to deal with.it will also have to be updated as you begin to doyour gpna, five years down the pike.the cost data will be put

into a section in the toolcost called the cost library. and as i mentioned before,that will be very staff-intensive the firstyear. subsequent years, not somuch, because a lot of the data can be just carried overand updated. the next item on the agendain terms of the gpna is that it is going to rely onamp-related data, project and amp-related data, such as,for example, architectural takeoffs in terms of thebuilding components, how many

square feet of roof tilesdoes it have, how many square feet of floor tile does ithave, because in order to estimate cost, you have tohave component detail. in terms of the volume of theindividual elements that need to be either replaced orfixed. so you have to have thearchitectural details. you also have to have theeffective useful life of each of the building components.for example, the roof. roofs generally have a 20 or25-year life, so we need to

know what that is for eachone of the individual building components so thatas we work the gpna tool through the 20-year lifecycle, we'll know when the 20 next replacement of thatbuilding component will come up.>> we also have in the software something called theremaining useful life. the remaining useful life mayhave the effect of extending the effective useful life.not everyone wears -- everything wears at the samerate.

if you have a 20-year roof,it has a -- it doesn't get a lot of wear, at the end of 20years, it may have another five years left in it.so the software has the ability to allow for thehousing authority to go in and add another, for example,five years to the life of that roof.so it will extend both the life and the cost estimatesof the particular building component out for anotherfive years so it makes the tool more realistic, adaptsto the individual situation

for each housing authority.the question comes up quite frequently, do i as thehousing authority have to do my gpna myself, do i have tohire contractors, and the simple answer to that is hudhas established in the gpna regs a certain number ofcriteria for qualifications for the individual to do thegpna itself. hud doesn't care whether youuse your own staff or whether you use contractors.it's the housing authority's decision.and you will notice that a

lot of the pieces of thissoftware that we're using 21 leave the bulk of theresponsibility for doing the gpna in the hands of thehousing authority. each housing authority isdifferent. they have differentsituations, different building, different lifecycles, and so it allows them to adapt to their individualscenarios. so the same thing is truehere in terms of the decision on the part of the housingauthority in terms of whether

i use my own staff, whether iuse contractors, it doesn't make a difference.it's your choice in terms of housing authority's decision.all we care about is making sure that whoever does thegpna has the qualifications to be able to do it.another element of the gpna rule has to do with whetheror not you have to notify residents, and what the rulesays is that you have to make the gpna data available tothe residents and the resident advisory board atthe time of submission of the

gpna to hud.so there are reports inside the gpna tool that you canprintout, that the housing authority can printout, theylook just like a standard hud form, very similar to thecapital fund annual statement with the budget, very muchlike those types of things, but it will be tailored tothe gpna itself, and so they will be able to print it outand make it available to both the residents and theresident advisory board. 22 so that sort of gives us aquick overview of the gpna

requirements and gpna itself.the energy audit, which will be dovetailed with the gpnaitself, we've had, as i mentioned before, therequirement for -- goes back to the '70s, i think.the housing authorities -- this new gpna rule providesmore detail than it did before, provides moreinformation, provides more standardization in terms ofhow the energy audits will be done and what's going to beincluded in them. and it will help the housingauthority in reducing both

its operating and capitalcosts, as i had suggested before.now, one thing you need to be aware of, unlike the gpna,the energy audit has no standard template, there's nostandard form, nor is there any standard set of softwarefor it. i think that it's based onactuary level two type audit. >> it's close to a actuarylevel two. >> and most of the people whodo these types of audits are familiar with the actuarystandard, so it should not be

a difficult or a new thing.it will provide the housing authority with all of theinformation that is required in the energy audit to beable to integrate that into the gpna.as we mentioned before, all housing authorities,regardless of size, have to do a gpna, all housingauthorities, regardless of 23 size, have to do an energyaudit. and the energy audit, likethe gpna, has to be project or amp-specific.the energy audit has to be

performed not less than onceevery five years. that's the same as what we'vehad before. where you run into somedifferences is the description in the energyrule, which talks about the fact that the energy audititself, it will be more explicit in terms ofreviewing projected costs, savings, pay back periodsrelated to a variety of energy conservation measures.the question comes up for those who aren't realfamiliar with energy audits,

the key issue on an energyaudit is what is an energy conservation measure and theenergy conservation measure is something which reducesutility or energy consumption, including water.if it reduces water, then -- or it reduces electricity orgas, then it's an energy conservation measure.it can include green measures that don't necessarily saveon energy, and you can include those type ofinformation that are environmentally orhealth-related, and we always

encourage that to beincluded, like issues involving air quality.so that's an important component.the energy audit rule doesn't require housing authoritiesto implement specific energy 24 conservation measures unlessit's required by statute. what it does, however, issimilar to the gpna, in which it identifies data andinformation for the housing authority to make critical,strategic planning decisions in terms of what am i goingto do with my inventory,

where am i going to makeimprovements, how do you prioritize, what are the listof things that i need to do from an asset managementperspective. from are those things from aphysical improvements perspective that can reducemy operating costs, like energy conservation measures.and so those are the types of things it will provide to thehousing authority, and the housing authority will makethose decisions. so, again, it's another datapoint, and we're trying to

make sure that we integratethe utility management component in with our capitalplanning, so we'll make the most use out of these twoexercises, so we can synchronize them.as i mentioned before, the energy audit will be done inconjunction with the gpna. you can do it before or atthe same time. new energy audit will notrequire -- will not be required if they have alreadydone an energy audit over the last three years that meetsthe standards of the new

rule.you will also not be required to do an energy audit ifyou've already got a 25 demolition or dispositionapproved by the special applications center.we talked about the timing of the energy audit rule.the energy audit rule and the gpna rule will come out as --we anticipate, as a single rule.we're -- remember, we have the consolidated capital fundrule that's coming down the pike and bruce indicated thatthat's probably going to come

out first, and then followedby that will be a joint pna and energy audit rule as onecombined rule. and so that will come out atthe same time thank we just discussed a couple minutesago. so what does the rule talkabout in terms of energy conservation measures?it talks about two types of things.it talks about core energy conservation measures and ittalks about advanced energy conservation measures.core energy conservation

measures are those types ofthings that have a history or a track record of reducingenergy consumption and water consumption, like buildingenvelope items including insulation, things like that,heating, cooling, mechanical systems, water conservation.waters is a really quick pay back in terms of energyconservation measures, power systems, power controls,lighting, appliances. we've heard of energy star.that's important because it reduces consumption andreduces operating cost, so it 26

makes the individual amp morecost-effective. advanced energy conservationmeasures are those things that are more difficult ormore complex to try and deal with, like fuel conversions,other types of conversion technologies like energymanagement systems. other types of things likeenergy generating technologies and renewabletechnologies, systems like solar, geothermal, i think imentioned on the last webcast that i'm seeing a lot of windgenerating -- windmills, all

over the country, nowadays,so you never know when that can come in as a possibilityfor the housing authorities. the energy audit itself hasto be categorized into three pay back periods.the old rule had a -- i believe it was a seven-yearpay back period. this rule categorizes it inthree separate pay back periods in terms of fiveyears or less. those are quick pay backperiods. 5-10 years.which is intermediate.

and greater than 10 years.so when you're doing your energy audit, the energyaudit is going to stratify the five or less, 5-10, andgreater than 10. this will provide housingauthorities with a better sense of when they can recoupthe cost of the energy conservation measure thatthey put n. and so, again, it's another data point forthe housing authority to be 27 able to let them prioritizethe type of work that they want to do, given the fundingthat's available to them at

the time.so let's take a second in terms of refreshing ourmemories, in terms of where we might find stuff.so data sources includes the hud gpna website.so we have the link there on the screen for you, if you'relike i am, i'm more of a visual guy, so if you'regoing up to the top of the hud website where it's gotthe programs and you click on the capital fund and youleave your cursor there, you'll get a drop down listof different parts of the

capital fund.one of the drop down list items is the physical needsassessment, and you click on that, and there's a wholewealth of information. you're going to find thefrequently asked questions, you're going to find the gpnasoftware, we have a gpna user's guide, we have linksto the webcasts that have been produced.bruce did a number of them before they brought on theh.a. contractor. we've done several so far.those are on the website now?

>> yes, those are on thewebsite now. again, we have the resourcesthere for both you and the housing authorities to accessto try and bring yourselves up to speed.so that's sort of an overview of the whole process.let's talk in terms of the 28 actual implementation itself.i mentioned at the outset that you folks will have acritical role in the whole process.i can't overemphasize that enough.and as i mentioned before,

bruce's t.a. contractor willevaporate at some point in time and you guys are goingto be the ones responsible by yourselves, and that's whyit's helpful if you take advantage of our technicalexpertise now so we can get you up to speed, so you'reready to rock and roll as bruce's technical assistancebegins to fade out and this whole process goes into fullswing. particularly as you get intothe next cycle, five years down the pike.in terms of implementation --

so we just talked about therule, both the gpna rule and energy audit rule.so what happens? the final rule getspublished, we're ready to go, housing authorities say oh,shucks, now i have to do it. so what's going to happen?they're going to start asking you questions, right?so you're going to be able to all of those questions.the correct answer is yes. right?right. >> i can't answer all thequestions!

>> you can answer some ofthem! >> in terms of the rolloutof the whole process, i break it down into three phases.so first, you're going to 29 have housing authorities, andyour pna providers, asking questions.all questions from your housing authorities and fromthe gpna providers need to go to you.not to bruce, not to any of our addresses, but they needto go to you. and there's a method to themadness, because it goes back

to what we were sayingbefore, is that you're going to ultimately be responsiblefor this. so it's better that youbecome involved and engaged in this stuff and learn,particularly now, where as bruce pointed out, we've gota lot of time before any of this stuff kicks in.so it's going to get you into working with the gpna tool,getting familiar with the issues, getting familiar withthe questions. so all questions need to comedirectly to you from both the

pna providers and the housingauthorities. so at that juncture, you'vegot questions. so you ask yourself, well,what the heck am i going to do with this.so the answer to that is in the first respect, we go backto that website that i was just describing to you, andyou check the user's guide, faqs, we're going to have theregulations there, other types of guidance, we havewebinar training, so hopefully, that will answeryour question.

on a rare occasion, maybewe'll have questions thaw 30 won't know the answer to.and so we would have this system set up which weloosely describe as an inquiry system, and that willenable you to come in to bruce, which will also comein to the contractor, and look at the question that youhave, figure out what the answer is, and get back toyou. we want to make sure that allof your questions are answered, and we get back toyou, so we're going to be

tracking those.and optimally, we're going to try to be able to get back toyou within about three days and hopefully you'll be ableto get back to the housing authorities within three daysas well. >> to be clear, that is upand operating now, so it is absolutely usable now.it's a functioning system now.>> absolutely correct. because we've gotten somequestions in from the field offices, using that webaddress.

we have -- and know this ishard to believe, but we actually have an app forthat, which is a query form. what's going to happen isthat bruce is going to provide you with a form, andwe'll take a quick look at it, and this is a screen shotof it. it's going to have the fieldoffice -- the writing is a little small for me.it's going to have the field office name, the field officee-mail contact, the field 31 office name of the person,and the phone number.

it will also have similarinformation in terms of the housing authority, thehousing authority name, e-mail address, and contactinformation a little bit further down.then there's going to be a great big box there, you'llsee on the screen. that's where you write yourquestion. >> again, an observation.although you would likely be receiving many of yourquestions by e-mail from housing authorities, i'mguessing, although some might

be phone, l all of the fieldscan be copied and pasted from the e-mail you get.>> making the whole process a lot easier for you.>> right. >> this isn't a realcomplicated or onerous system.the reason why we have it is so that we can document theprocess, so that we're going to be -- it will have aprocess for us to easily take in the question, identify it,answer it, categorize it, so that as we -- not only justanswer that question, so

we'll also track thequestions, the type of questions that are coming in.maybe it will highlight for us something that needs to befixed, something that needs to be changed, and when it'sin the format like this, it enables us to put it into adata base to be able to help you guys, as well as thehousing authorities, a little 32 bit better.so we have this query form we would like you to fill outand bruce, have you sent it to them yet?>> very shortly.

>> very shortly you'll get acopy of this form from bruce. like i said, it's not a verycomplicated form. you have there on the pagelots of room to be able to answer the question.so that's the e-query form. what's going to happen is youcome in, you answer questions, the ones that youcan, the ones that you can't, we would ask you to fill outthis e-query form, and send it to hud pna at hud.gov, andas bruce said, that's system is already in place, you can-- we've had field offices

already send in the e-queryform and we've had responses back.so it is informational, we'll distribute it en masse veryshortly. so that's how the process isintended to work in order to be able to answer questionsthat you're going to get from housing authority that is youdon't already know the answers to.as we mentioned, we're going to end up having the gpnasbegin to get submitted to hud.we have the schedule that i

showed you before.september 30th housing authorities will be submittedjune 2nd, december 30th, on september 1st, march 31sthousing authorities will be submitted on december 1st,june 30th will be submitted 33 on march second.all those are static dates. those will never change.what's going to change is when the rule is published.housing authorities start to ask questions, we answerthem. if field office is going toask them, if they can't

answer them, send inthee-query form, we'll get an answer in three days.next, housing authorities kick in, the pnas are due,based on those due dates that i just showed you a couple ofminutes ago. very important.housing authorities are getting ready to upload thegpna data to hud. if the building and unit datacharacteristics doesn't match, it won't be asuccessful upload. housing authorities are goingto get their submissions to

hud rejected, they'll bedirected to go back to the field office and resolve thepic issue. that's why i shared with youthe synchronization of the pic data which is the housingauthority downloads the pic building and unit datacharacteristics, based on a request from hud that weshowed you in the slide before.at that juncture, the housing authority doesn't want tomake any changes to its pic building and unit datacharacteristics, until it

completes its pna andsuccessfully uploads it to hud and it's accepted.and we'll be notifying 34 housing authorities of theacceptance of their gpnas once it's looked at.so the field office is going to have to resolve any picdata-related issues before it gets accepted into oursystem, which i'll talk about in a second.we're going to be tracking all of the gpnas that are duein each one of the quarters, and we'll be sharinginformation with you in terms

of what pna that is we'vegotten in, which have been accepted, which have beenrejected. so you'll be able to makesure your housing authorities are on target to be in ontime. and in successfully.and that's important. not only in on time, but insuccessfully. so once you resolve any pipic-related issues, you'll start to have quality controllooks econometrica, the contractor, at the gpna data.if, and i'll talk about this

later, if there are anomaliesin the data, guess what's going to happen.guess what happens, it goes back to take a look at it.it may be line item, individual category and likei said, we'll talk about that in a minute.but you're going to have to take it look at it and make ajudgment call in terms of whether or not it's a validissue or not. the goal of the qc process isnot to second guess the housing authority.we want to have credible 35

gpnas done.you want credible gpnas done, and the housing authority, inorder for it to be useful for them needs to have a crediblejob done. the other part of it ispeople are human, people make mistakes, so this way, we'regoing to be taking a look at what i would say is a30,000-foot level, look at the data to see if they'reoutside of any parameters that i'll mention.so that's a key concept to understand, we're not arguingwith the housing authority on

whether or not the roof builtneeds to be replaced this year or five years from now.that's not the issue. we're looking at the data tosee if it sort of makes sense with what we know todayregarding that data. so in terms of this processof quality control, we're going to have three levels.we're going to have a level one, which involves a fieldoffice, level two, involves a field office, and thecontractor, econometrica and assistance from econometrica.when we talk about level one,

two, three, don't getconfused in the upcs. it's completely different,don't get confused. we have level one, two,three, in terms of the q.a. this is the most common issuein which we're going to get data anomaly, we're going torefer it to the field office, the field office will look atit, resolve it with the housing authority.they're done. 36 level two may involve anissue directly by the housing authority that need -- thatthe field office needs

assistance from, so they willtalk to us, you guys will talk to us, we'll get theissue, weep help you correct the issue, whatever the issueis, then we're done. then the third level is goingto be one in which econometrica may have to goback and look at the underlying documents, whereit's thinking that this is not going to happen veryoften, but you never can tell when something comes up whereit's so out of balance that you need to go down and do asite visit and take another

look.so we want to be able to build in that capacity to beable to do all three levels if and when we need to dothem. that being said, let's talk alittle bit about the actual data submission, themanagement, and the q.a. process in a little moredetail. the housing authorityfinishes its gpna, it's done. i mentioned that it does notsubmit the entire gpna to hud.it only submits an extract.

and the term of art here isan xml file. the software, the gpnasoftware creates an xml file that is exported and will bee-mailed to hud at pna data at hud.gov, to hud.there will be 1xml file for each development.it's not going to be a single 37 xml file for the entirehousing authority. so this is going to be one ata time. this is going to be a littlemore challenging for the bigger housing authorities,but it shouldn't be that

onerous an issue.so the housing authority does an xml spreadsheet, sends itto hud at pna data at hud.gov, it then is trackedby econometrica in terms of, as i was mentioning before,we're going to be looking at the total universe of housingauthorities in any given quarter, that are due thatquarter, who submitted, who hasn't, of those who havesubmitted, who's been rejected, who's not beenrejected. for those that haven't beenrejected, who's been fully

accepted.and so that's how the process is going to roll in terms ofthe data coming in. once the pic data is great,we've gotten through all of that, we have a littlecorrect you're running around, headquarters, calledthe aggregator sucks in the xml files into this onesystem, so the aggregator is going to have all of thesedata files there and be one centralized data base thatwill enable both hud and econometrica to beginperforming q.a. on it, and as

i mentioned before, you'vegot to have your pic building and unit data characteristicsright in order for it to get into this process.so take that for whatever 38 it's worth.now we have this creature, called the aggregator, datafiles are into the system, they're into the aggregator.as i mentioned before, it's going to be looking for picbuilding and unit data characteristics, it will lookat whether or not it has energy information in it.if it gets rejected, it goes

back to the housingauthority. it doesn't reject all of thehousing authority xml files, it just rejects the one at atime. so if you've got 10 and itrejects one, only one goes back to the housingauthority, the other 10 go in through the system and getprocessed and we'll talk about the rest of theprocessing in a minute. at that juncture, if for anyreason the system rejects a submission, then you folkswill need to work with the

housing authority,particularly if it's a pic-related issue, toreconcile it and then the housing authority will beresponsible for making a resubmission to hud.the aggregator is used by the contractor and hud to be ableto analyze the data that comes in and this is where iwas getting into the whole discussion about q.a., andthere are -- it provides us with different levels ofinformation, both at the national level and down tothe regional level, as the

title suggests.so from there, we begin to 39 work on data that's accepted.we begin to look at it, and we develop a benchmarkingsystem. so as we're looking at thedata itself, one of the things that we're concernedabout, because we've got in round change 11,000-amps,projects, in the system? >> yes.a number of those are inactive.i think the last active count i saw was about 7400, 7500that are active with units.

>> really?with units in it? >> right.>> in any event, that's a lot.so we're going to implement a risk management perspectivein terms of looking at these. obviously the bigger thehousing authority the bigger the risk.we'll also be lock o'clock at cost data, the bigger thehousing authority, bigger the risk, so we're more likely tohave a conversation with you if the numbers are out ofwhack.

the other thing that we'redoing is cost comparison. right now, because we don'thave a lot of data in, we're probably going to be usingthe hud total element cost guidelines, tdcs, and housingconstruction costs, hdcs, as a benchmark to get upperlimits in terms of if you're over that limit, then maybewe need to take a look at it. so initially we're going touse that. as we get the four quarterscycling in, we will now have 40 pnas and pna data, whichincludes costs on 7000, 8000,

whatever the number is,projects around the country. that's a huge data base ofcost information. that will allow us to refinethis whole issue of q.c.ing the whole data that comes in,enabling us to refine the process a little more.and again, the issue isn't we're trying to micromanagethe pna. the pna is for the housingauthority. it's for the housingauthority to have data to make strategic decisions.our concern from hud's

perspective is that the datais relatively accurate and reasonable, and reasonablyreflects the cost of the backlog and the cost of theaccrual for now and for the next 20 years, and that's thegame plan. it's not to replace thehousing authority's decision making we've mentioned beforewe have the three levels, once all this data is comingin, and we go through the pic and we go through the riskmanagement and we go through the cost comparison in termsof spitting out where we have

anomalies.we have the three levels that we talked about a couple ofminutes ago. that's not terriblycomplicated, not difficult to deal with.initially, the benchmarking is not going to be highlyprecise. as you heard me, i discussedthat we are going to use the 41 tdcs and the hdcs, obviouslythat's not as precise as using real cost.it's what we have right now. and i would encourage you totake this in as an analytic

process.so for the first year of pnas coming out, if we have ahousing authority or a project in your jurisdictionwhich we said well, bill forson homes is over thebenchmark, so it comes to your office for you to take alook at it, maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's notsuch a good thing, depending upon what housing authorityyou're talking about. if it's a good housingauthority and you're well above the benchmark, then itcould be an anomaly, could be

a typo, for example.if it's one of our not so well performing housingauthorities, and a lot of us have been there, meparticularly, where maybe it's twice tdc and reallywhen you get down to it 50 be five times tdc, the units arein such bad shape, it's a judgment call.this is more or less a red light for you to take a lookat t if you take a a look at it and say this is a terriblehousing authority, yes, the costs will be over tdc, basedon what we know of the

property, that's okay, youlet us know, then it's a reasonable estimate of thebacklog and accrual. if not, then we need to goback to the housing authority and say well, your propertyis in fairly good condition, 42 you've got really highbacklog costs, what's the issue.you may have to dig a little deeper.so that's what we want you to take away.particularly for this first year of operation in terms ofgetting the q.c. projects

where they're above thethreshold, taking a look at them, doing a quick analytic.nothing complicated. if it looks good, that'sfine. the fact that it's over thebenchmark doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong or it's outof whack. so that's the takeaway.we mentioned as well that as we go through this process,we get the data reports in, the uploads, we go throughthe pic recommendations, the ones that are suggested, wego through the q.c.s, send

the ones over the benchmark,back. so with all of that rollingon at the same time, we're going to have bi-weeklyreports that we're going to be generating in terms of thestatus of these uploads that are coming in to thedepartment. this is going to help bruceand it's going to help your offices be able to maintaincontrol, because at the end of the day, the regs sayhousing authorities have to submit a pha to hud onceevery five years, 120 days

prior to the beginning of thefiscal year. so it's a compliance issue.so from a monitoring 43 perspective, from a fieldoffice's side, you got to make sure that all yourhousing authorities comply with the reg requirement.and so that's why it's important to have thesereports so that both bruce and your offices are able tocopy a hand on it, make sure that everything is going theway it's supposed to, then once the data is in, we'lldeal with the data.

so that being said, these aregoing to be done on a regular basis.i mentioned the aggregator, that is not currentlyavailable to the field offices.i think we have some plans to make it available.>> yes. at least enough of theaggregator so the field offices have access to thesummary level pna data. >> right.remember what bruce just said is that we're getting summarylevel data into it.

not all of it.but it will provide you with data that you've never hadbefore in terms of the physical condition ofindividual amps, individual properties, and thecomponents of those properties.so you'll have this data available to you.it will allow you to do your own analytics in terms of thesubmission of your capital fund, five-year and annualplan, you can see what they're planning over time.but right now, the big 44

primary purpose of theaggregator is to pull the data together so we can do aq.a. process, so we can make sure that the costs coming inreasonably reflect the condition of the inventorythat's out there. so that seems to be thesummary of the whole program, how you're going to beinvolved in this whole process, the types of thingsthat you're going to have to do, as bruce stated in thevery beginning and i've reiterated a couple of timesthroughout the course of the

last hour or so, you aredeeply involved in this process now and in the futurebecause it's going to be a regulatory requirement, it'sgoing to be an ongoing regulatory requirement.bruce's point is well-taken. we've got a lot of time herebefore it kicks in, so we want to take advantage of theopportunity to get your staffs up and running andhave a working understanding of the whole process, thesoftware, and the q.a. process, so that you'rebetter able to respond to

both the housing authorities,as well as to headquarters, and so we'll have everythingin sync. so with that, i think we'lltake a 5-minute break. does that make sense?>> that makes sense. and if you do have questions,and i've been getting a couple of very good questionsas we've been sitting here, so they're coming in -->> and those go in to what 45 e-mail address?>> hud pna at hud.gov. >> hud pna at hud.gov, sendyour questions n. bruce has a

computer, he brings them upand we'll answer them. >> thank you.>> we're going to take a break right now, fiveminutes. be back on time.we don't allow anybody to be late.so see you in five minutes. we're now going into ourquestion and answer session. one of two that we're goingto have this afternoon. with us, in addition to who'son my right, matt, will you introduce yourself?>> matt muntern.

>> and from.>> emg. >> and marv?>> marv goldstein. >> from building inspectionservice and econometrica. >> now that we have allintroduced ourselves, bruce is pulling up questions forus, so what's your first question, bruce?>> and you can continue to send in questions as we goalong, if you have them. so the first question comes,if a housing authority is converting to rad, rentalassistance demonstration, do

they have to perform thegpna. since that's hud-centric, letme start with that one. the basic principle is thatat the end of the day, we would like the data base thatwe're putting together to reflect the needs ofapplicable housing, of the 46 public housing inventory.obviously, if someone is converting to rad, they areno longer going to be in the public housing inventory sowe really would not want to have their data or need theirdata so it does become a

timing issue, although ithink we're in a fairly good timing situation right nowwith rad. once the housing authorityreceives the chap, i believe it's called, basically it's acommitment from hud to allow the housing authority intothe program if they meet certain requirements, and oneof those requirements that the housing authority isdoing is a pna for the rad program: during that time wewould not need to get their gpna.we assume we -- they would go

through the process andfinish the process. if they don't finish theprocess, if something happens and they don't finish the radprocess, then the public housing requirement wouldstill kick in and they would still be -- you know, havethat requirement to submit on the gpna.there are obviously wrinkles, if they're doing part oftheir inventory or amp, but we are able to address that.and i think matt had some comment.>> there are a number of

authority that is are doingboth. they are anticipating doingrad on some of their properties.so the idea is the gpna needs 47 to be done on all theproperties. there may be a rad pna donelater on, or instead -- it's not two separate reports,though. it's the same set of fieldinspections can be used to generate both data sets butthe rad report doesn't supercede the requirement tocomplete the hud data base in

the hud tool.>> so if the property is still in the portfolio, thenpopulating the hud tool is required.>> excellent point. >> and that would be up untilthe point that they close on converting from publichousing, in other words, go from under the chap to beunder the housing assistance payment contract.>> it makes sense to do the pno on the entire inventoryand then segregate out the public housing for the gpnaand then the rad for the rad

pna.>> we're seeing it a couple of ways but the portfolios,typically they're looking at less than the whole portfolioto apply for rad, and then the two or three propertiesare getting a separate set of reports on top of that aspart of their rad due diligence, or commitment.but essentially, the point is both physical needsassessment and rad pca are looking at collecting thesame information, the same cost index, the same productin many ways.

but using different tools.>> so you don't need two 48 contractors to do the job,just one contractor. or if you're doing it inhouse, of course -- >> i believe on the radprogram, they do require credentials, of theconsultants doing those. there's a third partyrequirement. so the gpna can be done by inhouse staff, the rad pna needs to be done bycredentialed consultants. keep that in mind.>> the rad requirement does

have have requirements overthe gpna, integrated pest management planning has to bedone when is not a requirement under the gpna.so there are some differences, and i would saythat the rad pca protocol, which comes out of the markto market program is much more narrative and visual,photographic-intensive than the gpna.so although the inspection is looking at the same things,the actual reports are going to be pretty different.>> right.

>> agreed.next question. will the annual updatereplace the need to submit an annual plan/five-year planevery 12 months, once published, will this be -- ithink we're anticipating questions, it's going to be aduplicative effort for the housing authority and howmight this relate to the epic system.>> i'm not sure about the epic system.but understand that your 49 five-year and annual capital-- particularly your annual

capital fund plan is yourbudget for the grant that you just got for that particularyear. the annual update on the gpnaside is for those work items you identified in your gpnathat you did this year. and the source of the funds.so it's really comparing apples -- they're both annualupdates, they are annual events.but one covers all the costs of your capital fund, and touse a phrase i think you've been using is commitmentdocument.

that is a financial statementthat's given to your housing authority's auditor which isa part of your audit, and it's an audit trail in termsof how you use your funds. this is simply -- correct meif i'm wrong, the experts here, that the annual updateon the gpna is a relatively easy type of thing to enterinto it and generate the report.>> and bill, i would say that the annual update to the gpnais looking backwards over the last 12 months, and yourannual and five-year planning

process is looking forward.so one looks back, what was achieved, and the otherlooks, how are you going to obligate funding for thecoming year. >> correct.>> yes. the epic piece of it, okay,so there is a working group in epic that is reviewing theability to streamline these 50 processes.again, no promises. no product yet.but envision, if you will, for a moment, a system wherethe housing authority has a

housing pna, the pna reflectsall kinds of needs that they're not going to have themoney to cover, they're called upon to do theirfive-year plan, envision if you would a system that mightallow them to pick items out of the pna which they'vealready done and create the five-year plan from thoseitems that is one of several different scenarios that'sbeen looked at, to streamline the processes which infactors what the pna is suppose to be, which is kindof beginning point of that

whole process.one should have a pna before embarking on a five-year planand annual plan. >> it goes back to the fieldoffice's responsibility for reviewing and approving thefive-year and annual plans to begin with, as a part of thatreview process, is what the housing authority proposingin their annual and five year plans, does it make sense.unless you've actually been out there or have a pna, youreally don't know. so this is going to provideyou with tools to be able to

do the analytic, to make thejudgment call in terms of whether or not the housingauthority is going in the right direction.>> very good. question comes, so as we doannual updates, will this add 51 -- it will remove, the firstyear, obviously, but will it add an end year?>> kind of a technical question.so what happens, you start out with 20 years worth ofneeds, obviously, after one year, you've only got 19years worth of data left.

>> well, i guess is thequestion is the -- is the question there does thesoftware recalibrate the overall need once you go inand enter in an update? so if you had bill folsomhomes, and you had $10 million, roofs was 100,it recalibrates your need to $990,000.that's the question. does it do that calibration ithink is the question. >> go ahead.>> i think the question is slightly different.>> oh, okay.

>> which is in my five yearplan i've got three roof that is need to be done, anotherroofs that are due to be replaced in year six andseven so after a couple of updates so the year six andseven roofs come into the five-year plan.>> does the software pull those forward as timeprogresses into the five-year window.>> no, because the housing authority would have to dothat, because there's no synchronization at themoment, and i think that's

what you're talking about,between the actual five-year and annual plan and pna.so it's not a single 52 automated system.they are separate. >> right.that's another system. >> right.>> but the item is never lost.>> right. >> what happens is when youdo the annual update, there are items that are notcompleted, you're not marking them as complete, the toolautomatically moves them to

the next year, so the itemswill always stay the same. we don't add years on the endfor hud's purposes. we can probably do anestimate of what those will be until the next five-yearspeak value when we'll get all fresh data and be back to20-year. so there will be a period oftime when the later years will be -->> the question is do items that don't get completed inyear one carry to year two, then absolutely.anything that doesn't get

checked off in the yes we didthat as to the year two total.>> and the second, next question, once housingauthority units are approved for removal, will the nextannual update reflect that? next annual update of what?>> of the pna, i would assume.it says next annual update, but it must be of the pna.so when you do the annual update, the first questionthat the annual update asks you is has this amp beenapproved for demolition. 53

or for removal from theinventory. and if it answers yes, thenyou don't need to do an annual update.>> but you have to go in there and check the box "yes"in the pna software. >> that's correct.now, issues -- questions, but what if it's partial.well, you still have something being done, soyou'd still report annually and it's all going to catchup to you when you do the revision in five years hence.>> we had a question -- we

did that one.there's a good one. the energy conservation forhousing, a work book, will this work book fulfill thenew energy audit requirements?>> it's near and dear to my heart, but the answer to thatis no. >> no.not by itself. >> there's a new set.because that work book, which actually was updated in '93or '98, was actually an earlier work book from pdnrfrom probably the '70s and

'80s and that worked on a payback period of seven years, at minimum, and as you'venoticed, the stuff that we're doing now, the rule requiresa breakdown between zero and five, five and 10, andgreater than 10. and so it's not necessarilygoing to give you what you need for the ecms under thisrule, and the types of things, because there's moreanalytics in the energy audit 54 rule.>> >> it makes very good sense.i think there's also a process

reason for doing that as well isthe housing authorityã¡-- excuse me the field office is mostfamiliar with the housing authority, and if an answercomes back that the field office knows is defective in some way,we would not want to be in a position of responding directlyto the housing authority when the field office knows.so it really needs to go back to the field office, just do thatlast check, before it goes backã¡-->> right, it is all a part of building capacity of you folksout in the field to make sure

you understand the system andyou're able to be able to doã¡-- to do theseã¡-- do these issues.so i think we're just about ready for the next segment.they told me i have five minutes left?yes? >> no, that was five minutesago. >> okay, so it's time to move onwith our next segment. so what i want to talk aboutnext is a discussion in termsã¡-- >> go on to a break?>> no, we're going to go on to the next one for right now.we will break later.

part of the question is from afield office perspective, what can i do to help move thisprocess along? so in the first perspective fromour regional offices, it would be helpful if the regionaloffices had a point person to help both housing authorities inthe field offices in terms of the roll-out of the gpna, so wemight have gpna liaisons. we have already i think brucehas sent something out and asked the field offices to appoint inthe individual field offices a point person, a point ofcontact, so that he will have a

place to go when there areissues in your field office. also it helps to have a pointperson because that will give a focus for the field office sothat they willã¡-- they will have somebody that we can try andmake as much of an expert as we can get at this.field offices can have more than one.if you have multiple folks that have capacity in this area,that's okay too. but we'd like to have everythingfunneled through that one point of contact so that we can makesure that we get consistency

from each individual fieldoffice. so i think that covers thatissue. in terms of developing the inhouse expertise, in terms of the functionality and the operationof the gpna tool, you need to be prepare to respond to questionsand answers from housing authorities because we justtalked about that quite a bit. and you'll see on your slidethere, there are a number of resource tools that we talkedabout, the gpna website, the software itself, the usersguide, the faqs, remember, i

mentioned that it would behelpful if we had regional experts as well, theregulations, the webinars, all of this stuff, and of course themore you do on this, the more experiences you are going toget, and you are better able to help housing authorities.if it comes to it, if it's necessary, you've got for thenext year or two the technical assistance team that we havehere that will be able to help resolve these issues so that wecanã¡-- we can move you along in terms of your understanding ofthe whole process.

so you're ready to do it aloneonce that's over. bruce?>> can i interject? >> please.>> i'm not sure we were 100% clear earlier.if we weren't, i want to make sure that field office folksunderstand that hud pna, hud.gov e-mail account that's been setup is for your use and you don't have to wait till you get aquestion from housing authority to make use of it.if in developing your expertise, studying the stuff, you come upwith your own questions to

prepare yourself, absolutely,that's what that e-mail account is for.so it's not only for phas and vendor questions, it is for yourquestions. >> absolutely.>> thank you. >> agree.as you begin getting into this process, other types of thingsyou can do is making sure you are contacting your housingauthorities, talk to them about the gpna requirements, talk tothem about when it is going to be rolling out, all of theresources that we just talked

about.having them try and begin the same process that you are doing,in terms of, number one, determining who is going to dothe gpna, energy audit and housing authority.is it going to be the housing authority?or is it going to be a contractor?again this is going to depend on the expertise in the individualhousing authority, the resources of the housing authority and soon and so forth. but you have to start thinkingabout that now.

you can't wait until after therule is published and you're 120 days out.you need to think about this now.you need to think about developingã¡-- telling thehousing authorities they should be developing an implementationplan for how this whole stuff is going to roll out.remember, we had the energy audit.we have the gpna. we had the five year and theannual plan. all of this has to roll out, andyou have submissions on both.

so you need to think about whatare the steps that need to take place in order to get, like theobligations, deadlines on the capital fund, what is it i needto do to be able to spend all my money?because i have got procurement related issues.i have contracts i've got to do. so on and so forth.they need to develop an implementation plan for how toget to the in state which is the submission of the gpna to thehud. discuss with the housingauthorities the pic unit and

data characteristics, have themdo the download, take a look at the data, to make sure the datais correct and accurate. i know we already have arequirement on the capital funds side to say they update picbuilding and unit data characteristics on an annualbasis before we disseminate the capital funds.that's a good thing, but if the data is not correct, and westill see inaccuracies in the pic building and unit datacharacteristic, if it is not ready or accurate by the time itis up loaded, then you guys are

going to be involved with themin having to try and correct it, and that can take time,depending on what the issue is. so you need to be talking withyour housing authorities with regard to that type of issue.another thing you want to talk to housing authorities about iscollecting property, amp level data for input into the costlibrary. there'sã¡-- if you have ever doneone of these things, you realize the first time you do it,there's a lot of data collection that you've got to do, in termsof i talked about the

architectural take-off, makingdeterminations about the remaining useful life and theeffective useful life and the square footages associated withthe architectural take-off. this requires a lot of work.so that the housing authority is a part of the implementationplan needs to be thinking about what those are in collectingthat data up front, unless they are going to hire a contractorto do that for them, as a part of doing the gpna.as i mentioned before, you need to make a decision in terms ofwhether or not you are going to

use the commercial cost indicesor whether or not you've got enough cost data in house to beable to populate the cost library in the gpna software.the installation dates of all of the major building systems,housing authority needs to know those or needs to be able tomake a reasonable guess as to what those are, in order for thesystem to make those calculations.you have got a lot of components to a building, and all of thisis a lot of data that you have to collect, that the housingauthority is going to have to

collect.that's why i'm suggesting that you sit down with the housingauthorities and have this conversation with them, makingsure that they understand these types of things that they aregoing to have to do. so if they are doing it now,they will be ready to rock and roll when it's time to actuallydo the pna itself. mentioned the issue of theeffective useful life of the remaining building components aswell. again, if you've gone throughthat, gone through the process,

you're going to collect theinformation, you will be ready to go.we talked about the issue of architectural take-offs.what we mentioned in our november 14th session was asampling. the sampling plan in the gpnausers guide parallels the sampling plan from the oldmodernization standards handbook, which provides aminimum of 10%, but you have to segregate that out where youhave different building structure types, differentã¡-->> 10%ã¡-- meaning it's 20% of

the buildings.>> right, right. >> 100% of the common space.>> bingo. absolutely.and so the housing authority needs to think of these thingsin terms of its sampling plan for each project before they getinto it so that all of the stuff is ready when they do the gpna,it will go a lot faster and it will be a lot easier for thehousing authority. on your side of it, from a fieldoffice perspective, as you know, we have a lot of housingauthorities around the country

that are very good at managingtheir public housing. you have other housingauthorities that don't do such a hot job.and so from a field office perspective, you may realizethat some of your housing authorities may require more tlcthan others, in terms of getting this process started, finished,and completed. and so types of housingauthorities that might be something for you to think aboutare your troubled housing authorities, housing authoritiesthat are in receivership, if you

have any of those.housing authorities that are very large, larger housingauthorities are going to have a much more challenge because ofall the data that has to be collected, and remember, this isamp by amp. so when they submit theircompleted pna, it's going to be one amp at a time.so there are going to be challenges for those, so if theyare not as up to speed as we'd like them to, then we're goingto have problems as we try and implement this whole thing.so it's important to think about

larger housing authorities.housing authorities that have money issues.i understand that we all have money issues.but some housing authorities are in worse shape than others.maybe some housing authorities have unfortunately had auditfindings and have had to repay funds from non-federal sources,and so, you know, that's another issue that may affect yourhousing authority's ability, because the question is, haveall of your housing authorities submitted their pna?and hopefully the answer is

going to be yes.but if you have any of these housing authorities within yourjurisdiction, you may want to anticipate that you might havesome problems. also housing authorities thathave had natural disasters. we've had sandy up in thenortheast recently, big natural disasters, so you need to thinkabout those as a part of the types of things that you shouldbe doing. another thing that youã¡-- wealready talked about this, assigning staff in terms ofmaking sure that they are

familiar with the gpna and thewhole process that we talked about this afternoon, develop aplan for making sure that each one of your housing authoritiescompletes the gpna and the energy audit, in making surethat those are submitted and submitted on time, and we gaveyou the due dates for those, twice during the course of this,and we will put those due dates on the web as we move furtheralong. you need to be regularlymonitoring your housing authorities to make sure thatthey're making progress.

you don't want a housingauthority that waits until the 121st day to start the process.that's why you want to have the conversation with all yourhousing authorities well in advance of the publication ofthe final rule and the due dates for those particular quartersthat will kick in first. so it's all about communication.you need to have communications with the housing authoritiesabout the gpna, about the roll-out, about what they aredoing to make sure it goes smoothly and it gets done and itgets done on time.

goodness gracious.>> well, i think we actually may have a couple of minutes, and ihave a question that came in? >> oh, good.>> that is actuallyã¡-- that actually relates to something wewanted to cover and much of what you're covering, which isã¡-->> tell me. >> basicallyã¡-- paraphrasing thequestion, that as a field office, how shall i advise myhousing authorities who ask me should i do this myself, orshould i get a contractor? >> and i have good news and badnews sort of.

hud doesn't tell you it's thegood news and hud doesn't tell you it's the bad news.we mentioned this earlier, every housing authority is different.they have different capacity levels, different experiencelevels, and within the housing authority, on facility'smanagement, you've got different housing authorities withdifferent capacities. it will depend on the individualhousing authority, their capacity, their inclinationbecause i've been at housing authorities where if thissubject came up, i knew they

have staff that had thecapacity, but the executive director wanted to contract itout. it's a decision on the part ofthe housing authority staff and the executive director and theboard in terms of what do they want to do.if they want to contract it out, as long asã¡-- if they want to doit in house, as long as their staff have the requisitequalifications, not a problem. it's a housing authoritydecision. if the housing authority wantsto contract it out, not a

problem.you've just got to make sure that you incorporate thequalifications specified in the rule in the solicitation.so it's a housing authority decision.and you need to tell them that this is a housing authoritydecision. does that make sense?>> it does. bruce, i will add one otherpossibility, which is there's a middle ground.there may be authorities that in the short-term want to contractit out.

but in the process, they want totrain some of their own staff on how to do it, use the contractedprocess to help them gather all the baseline data, which is aone-time activity, and train their own staff so that in thesubsequent updates, as well as in the five-year second pna,they could do it themselves. >> i think that's an absolutelywonderful idea, train the trainer type of thing.so that you're hiring somebody to get you up to speed, and thisway you can fly on your own, once they are done.>> soã¡--

>> so what?>> so i'm housing authority, and i've talked to my field office,and the person i work with at the field office, and i ended upmaking the decisionã¡-- though i'm not sure i can do thismyselfã¡-- i'm going to go ahead and get a contractor.soã¡-- trick questionã¡-- >> knock yourself out.>> so there's nothing i need to do now.i just get a contractor and they take care of everything?>> well, my answer is twofold. i have the procurement side ofme, and i have the program side

of me.from a program side, you don't want to do a contract with acontractor and just let them go. i have had executive directorswho have relied on contractors to do everything for them, andguess what? the contractor did it wrong, andthe executive director didn't know it was wrong and got intotrouble with hud because the executive director was sayinghe's the expert. he's doing everything.as a manager, it's one thing to have assistance in terms of, youknow, bringing people in to help

you get these things done, butyou as a manager still have to know the basic parameters.doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a degreed architector engineer to understand or to do this, but you have to knowabout the process, and you haveã¡-- the other part of theanswer is, just from a pure, pure procurement perspective,it's contract administration. if you've got a contract withsomebody, you've got to make sure that they deliver, andyou've got to make sure that what goes into your contractreflects the requirements of

hud, from both the gpna side ofit as well as the energy audit side.and it's called read the darn contract.>> from the contracting point of view, energy audit part of it,so make sure if you're going to put an rfp out, that has to comein. the field offices ought to beadvising the housing authorities on what the minimum requirementsare in having to talk about whether they have folks thatmeet the requirements. by the way the energy audit hasrequirements for those folks in

it that will need to become partof it. so i think that's the role ofthe field office is to walk through what those requirementsare, and then i think there's a sample rfp that hud is pushingout as well that the field office could help by supplyingthat approved rfp language. >> we're about to go to break,but did you have something else? so the end conclusion i believeis that regardless of whether housing authority is doing itthemselves or having contractors, they need to beengaged.

>> yes.100%. >> they are not going to have asuccessful pna unless they are engaged in collecting theinformation, reviewing the work product of a contractor, andparticipating in the that process.-- in that process. >> and the authority is the onesthat is going to use the data, so they have to understand thedata and have to have a comfort level that adequately reflectsthe condition of their portfolio.>> it can be a tremendous

learning process for them.>> absolutely. >> with that, i think we break.>> we break for five minutes, go down the hall, come back ontime, and then we'll do another demolitionã¡-- demolitionã¡--demonstration of the gpna software for you.thank you. >>>> welcome back, ladies and gentlemen.this segment of our show for today is going to be anadditional demonstration of the gpna software.we're hoping to get a little bit

further down in terms of themechanics of the software than we did in the first go-around.and again, this is all of getting deeper and deeper as wego through each of these training sessions.we don't want to try and do it all at once.this way it will give you a chance to absorb it all.i have with me today bill champion.he's going to do our software demo.so i will turn it over to bill. >> great.good afternoon everyone.

i'm bill champion.just wanted to apologize in advance if it looks a littlefuzzy on screen, please be advised that it will look a lotbetter during the replay. so i will begin with the hud pnademo. i will start with the end inmind by opening a completed gpna tool.you will find that once you open the completed gpna tool, thatyou have two choices, continue to the dashboard, continue tothe control panel. opening the dashboard will showyou basically all the aggregated

information, all the data that'sbeen collected for the given authority.what you will see here are the ability to slice and dice thatdata by many different categories, components.there's also associated graphs with those.and roll-up data that can be seen in the projection year overyear. there's also an option that thefinal viewer and the person reviewing before sending to hudmay be utilizing a little bit more, and that's the reportingfunction.

clicking on that function, youcan also slice and dice and report on individual summaries,for example, these forms should all look familiar.and i will close this form, by year, by needs type, bycategory, and by component. >> i think i pointed out justfrom that screen shot that you just showed us, the first one iguess it was? yeah.this is the format that it generates for the housingauthorities. and so as you can see, it lookslike a standard run of the mill

hud form providing data in thedifferent increments. so it's fairly easilyidentifiable by the housing authority so they can share itwith their board and the residents and the residentadvisory boards. >> great.again, that's the summary that can also be shown by year, byneeds type, by category, whether it be sustainability,marketability, and a few other different looks that get thedata out clearly, but summarized.all right.

all right.the next phase is the control panel.and i'm going to actually leave this because this is a completedgpna tool, and i would like to get into some of the detail andwalk you through how these things get completed.so i'm going to close this one, and i'm going to spend just alittle bit of time in power point.and it starts of course with importing the pic data.and i believe that both bruce and bill have mentioned thatthis process cannot be started

soon enough.so this is essentially just screen shots of things thatshould be done prior to the assessment.we're showing this and we're starting this demo with theassumption that this has already been done, so the tool that iwill open will already have the pic data imported.you see here that once it's verified its input here, it'schecked, it's previewedã¡-- previewed, it searches for theactual document on any computer, any desk top, you click open andit will up load that data and

you have your individualdevelopment/amps in the left hand column of your gpna tool.the second item is the cost library.you really have two choices when it comes to the cost library.you have the option to both down load a blank cost library andfill out each of the line items individually and then re-up loadthat cost library, or you can do that manually as you're goingthrough the actual inspection and assessment process.what i will do as part of this demo is use a cost librarythat's already been

prepopulated.again the demo assumes you have gone through both of these stepsalready and up loaded your pic data and it's been verified andcorrect, and you have got your cost library for each of theitems that you're expecting to encounter in the assessment.all right. so i will head over to a pnatool that has only the pic data up loaded and the cost librarythere. again, it opens with youroptions for the dashboard. understanding that we've done nowork here.

there are no items in our actualdashboard. nothing to report on.we've got the housing authority name and the date of the pnawhich is yesterday. if i go to the control panel, ihave got again data that is editable on the housingauthority, i can enter a new pna, i will use the one fromyesterday, but i have the option of starting a new pna andtracking and monitoring my progress through pnas at thispoint. also have my master costlibrary.

you can see here it's populatedwith items that i'm expecting to encounter.i've got an eul for each of these items, a local multiplierand my replacement and refurbishment costs.what i would like to do is just spend a few minutes on buildingsets, understanding that you are in the field offices and will beworking with phas on these. just to get a full grasp andunderstanding of what we're looking at at the building sets,we believe that phas are going to come to you with a fewdifferent issues and concerns.

they have got many types ofbuilding types in amps in specific categories that youwill need to address. and this process is reallyhandled in the gpna tool by assigning building sets, sitesets, unit sets to each of the units that you have got at theeach individual authorities. so some of these examples wewould like to run through are just single building type in oneamp, multiple building types in one amp.we have some multiple developments in a single amp.and a few specific cases that

we're sure the authorities willbe bringing to you and asking you for your assistance with.the first is one we love to see, it's pretty simple, it is atower or a small set of similar buildings in one amp.for example lakeview tower here, about 150 points.efficiencies and one bedrooms, but those can easily be brokeninto just two building sets. in el paso we have got basicallywe have got three building types in one amp.we've got walk-up garden style apartments and we've got kennedyestates which are detached

homes.moving on we have multiple building types with scatteredsites in one amp. and this is bel air and west101st street. so just giving you some insightinto the different building types that can all be found in asimple amp. this one is one of my favorites.it's unique in that it's got three developments in one amp.so you see they are allã¡-- they are across a large space, and ifyou can see the one two and three there, you will see theseare ones that assign themselves

to separate sites when creatingthe building sets. so that's a park center, elã¡yoittwins andã¡-- elliot twins and cedar height apartments inminneapolis. we have our favorite, this oneout in san francisco, it's 195 townhouses, 177 units of publichousing and 78 units for actual families with income, less than58% of the median san francisco bay area income.these are all units basically of public housing.>> and i think part of the thing i would share with the fieldoffice is that the software,

remember the software is set upby amp. once you get the amp, then whatit looks for is as you were describing building sets.in other words, buildings that are similar in nature.so in the example you had a high-rise, so that's all youhad, you only need one building set.but if you had a high-rise and a walk-up, then you would want tocreate two separate building sets based on the structuretypes, because similar structure types have similar costs.>> absolutely.

>> or conversely differentstructure types like an elevator building is going to havedifferent costs associated. >> that's correct.>> that's why as we went into asset based management and wecreated amps a lot of times in your last example you had oneamp that had three properties in geographic locations.so it's something that as the housing authority begins to dothis, they are going to start scratching their head and sayhow should i do this? >> great.absolutely.

i think the one with the threedevelopments in the the three separate sites at each reallylend themselves to three separate site selections andthen different building sets and different unit sets followingthat. in our continuum of, you know,really easy to define and a little bit more difficult todefine, we have got our mixed financing with floating unit.so those present a unique challenge, understanding that inthis case villages at east lakes, they have 542 units and271 of those units are floating.

>> so this whole notion ofbuilding sets, you look at your amp.you look at the different building structure types.you set up the different building sets, and that's whatyou're actually doing the inspection on.>> that's right. that is the big idea here.that is really what we like to show is that hey, we understandthat you're going to have several different combinations,categorizations of buildings and units and maybe even sites, butthe tool allows you to get in

there and really segregate andassign groups to each of those, so when you're doing anassessment, whether it be along the building or the units, youcould use the proper individual number to extrapolate over toget the properã¡-- >> gives you a more accurate setof numbers. >> that's correct.>> in terms of what your backlog and what your costs are.>> that's correct. so i will start with a blankgpna tool here. we will get our hands dirty.and you will have to let me know

how much detail you would likeme to get into. >> okay.and again, for those in the field offices, this is not goingto be really clear right now. the original of thispresentation. when it is archived to the webpage, this will be much clearer. they can process it to be muchclearer on the web page. so you will get a chance to seethis again. for those of you who receivedthe original invitation to this meeting, i attached a copy ofthe tool to that e-mail.

so if you have access to that,some of you might want to open that and maybe play with it ashe's speaking, butã¡-- so bear with us.doing a good job. >> thank you.so i will start again with a blank tool, and it's got theminimum in it which is the pic data and the up loaded costlibrary. you will see here if i'm lookingat amp one, i can edit the amp and see that this is basicallybroward gardens. here are my units and buildingassignments.

this amp of course hasã¡-- i willgo to the side hereã¡-- different bedroom sizes, efficiencies, oneand two bedrooms, and it's got individual units that need to beassigned, in buildings, in sets, and sites.i'm going to cancel here and i'm going to go to one that's alittle bit more interesting. i'm going to look at amp 3.if i look at that development, again, this is pinewood village,many more units, efficiencies, one and two bedroom units withwalk-up and elevator buildings. so there are two differentbuilding types there.

>> can i interrupt you there?>> sure, uh-huh. >> so one of the things we'reasking housing authorities to do as we send out these pic sets isto check their pic data in the tool.so the way they would do that and you can test that out on thetools that you have, if you double click on any of the amps,it will open that window that he was just at which basicallygives a summary, how many units, what size units, and actually ifyou then go back to the control panel and click onã¡-- right, ifyou were to click onã¡-- at the

bottom of the column, editdevelopment units, it actually gives you a list of theaddresses of every unit that pic records.so there's a lot of detail that's been pulled from pic downto the individual unit addresses and size and, you know, relatedto all the buildings. i wanted to kind of show you orat least tell you how you get to the pic information that's inthe tool so it can be checked beforehand.>> just following on what bruce says, i have my informationhere, and looking at this amp,

and i'm going to need a littlebit more data, so i'm going to cheat a little.i'm going to go out and use a tool that's free and i'm goingto go to google earth. and i'm going toã¡-- let's see ifi eve got my address hereã¡-- let's see if i have got myaddress here. 85 gordon court in glen burney.and i would probably follow the same process in just verifyingwhat i'm going to see, and there i have it.it looks like 512345ã¡-- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, walk-up buildings and twotowers.

if i'm in my tool and would liketo take a look at that, and that isã¡-- i went to new.cancel. pinewood village, it is 5walk-up buildings, two elevator structures.so i'm going to take that to be correct.so the first thing i'm going to do here, i can see from mygoogle earth image, this is one site.i would like to call this one site, they are sharing parkinglots. there are not too manyamenities.

i will add a site.and this site i'm going to call the pinewood park site.the address is 7885 garden court.and it's in glen burney. i'm not a great typer.[laughter] and that is maryland.all right. >> key boarding is the phrase.>> yeah. >> that's close enough.>> it's going to ask me some take-off data.i'm a big fan of take-off data because i can rely on that anduse it later on in my

inspection.so my gross property area, this is one of those skills that youmay need someone at the authority or someone that doesthis quite often to take a look at.i'm going to say that this site is 10 acres.so that wouldã¡-- i'm going to call it 450,000 square feet.>> and this gives you a sense of the type of information that thehousing authority needs to collect up front to be able toenter this data into the system, like the gross property area,the parking area, the paved

pedestrian walking area, theplayground, the tennis courts, if applicable, basketball, so onand so forth. >> you see that this becomes arepository of information about the housing authority.it's all in one place. it's organized somewhat, so itis another advantage of using this tool is that it becomes aplace where all this information is kept.>> great. so i'm going to save this data.i believe this is an elderly building, so i don't havebasketball or the other

amenities.but there it is. that's my site.it's all the buildings are at one site, and i'm comfortablewith that. i've got the main street that itpasses in my title. all right.the next thing i'm going to do is i'm going to add a buildingset. and i'm going to do the walk-upsfirst. i'm just going to call thesewalk-ups. and i'm going to look for awalkã¡-- walk-up.

if i search for individualbuilding types, it will let me know.i've got no row townhouses. i have no single familydetached, again, because i verified my pic data prior tothis process. i have five walk-up buildings ascan be seen by google earth image here.those are the five walk-up buildings.i'm going to say they are all pretty much the same.i'm going to move them all over into this building set.i'm going to save and close.

i could add some of thepreliminary data here. i will make this 200,000 squarefeet. i'm going to make the buildingsmaller than that. [laughter]>> arbitraryã¡-- [laughter]>> and then the perimeters of course, i will make those13,000. >> but again, the take away hereis that this additional data that the housing authority needsto start now to work on to collect the data so that it canenter it into the software, and

the more you encourage them todo this sort of stuff, the better off everybody's going tobe. >> great.all right. and i'm going to save and closethat. and i've got a new set here, andit's called walk-up. if any time i've made a mistakeand i felt i was really off on that 200,000 square foot sitearea, i can go back and edit that building set.same data will come back up and i can say you know what?that's probably only 180,000.

and this is true at any levelhere in the building set. i understand now that i've gotthe walk-ups, but there are still two buildings left.i want this to be completely exhaustive, mutually exclusiveand collectively exhaustive. so i'm going to go back in andadd another building set, and that building set i will call myelevator buildings, and i will just call this towers.and then again, the name is just something recognizable andreproducible if i send someone else to the site, they should beable to identify towers from my

description.much smaller footprint. i will call this 50,000.area, i will keep the same, 180,000.perimeter, i will make 5,000. average height i will call 400feet. and i've got two buildings here.i can move them over one at a time, but i'm going to make abuilding set that includes both towers, so i've got them boththere. save and close.i've got my two building sets. down to the next level, youknow, there's a couple ways of

doing this.any individual person using the tool may take time with sites,do towers, go all the way to the end.i just like doing them together, so i can keep a mental note ofwhat i've left out. so i'm pretty sure i'm completeup to building sets. now i'm heading over to unitsets. i will start my tower.i've gotã¡-- i'm going to add a unit set.again, i've got efficiencies. one bedrooms and two bedrooms.i'm going to count for all my

efficiencies first, 0 bedrooms,those are all of them, and i'm going to pull them all over.all right. i'm going to add another one.i'm going to call this one bedrooms.bring them all over. save and close.add another. are there any two bedrooms?yes, there are. all right.two bedrooms. two bedrooms, not a lot, but i'mgoing to put them all in the same category.save and close.

walk-up i can do the same thingfor, add unit set. let's see, i've gotefficiencies, save and close. unit sets.one bed. save and close.and i will check for two beds. and there are none.>> there you go. >> okay.all right. i'm going back to my googleearth image, and i'm looking for an amenity, a pool house,somethingã¡-- i don't see one, but i will make one here in ourtool.

>> because that was in the picprofile? >> there was not.oh. there was not, but just for sakeof demonstration, i'm going to create a common area set.>> okay. >> and i'm going to call thisthe rental office. >> there you go.>> common area, i will call it one.i will say that this is 400. average ceiling height is 15.and gross area is 1,000 square feet.save and close.

all right.so now we've got our segments for building sites, units, andthe common area office. this is basically how i'm goingto slice and dice my data. it also follows that myinspections will follow these. again, sat the unit siteã¡--again, at the unit sets, i'm going to look at at least 10% ofeach of the unit sets. at the building sets, i'm goingto go into 20%ã¡-- i'm going to see 100% of the developments,100% of the sites and 100% of the common areas.>> i they what we're doing

hereã¡-- i think what we're doinghere through this process is segregating, so we're inspectinglike types of things. >> that is correct.>> so you put all of the one bedrooms into one sets makingassumptions they were all the same, but it could just aseasily be the case, and they would know that at the sitelevel that maybe some of those one bedrooms have two baths,they could be different in some ways.we're justã¡-- >> the next one i will make alittle more difficult.

[laughter]>> all right. so now what's left for me to do,now that i've got like units at the basic level, at theelementary level, which are the units, i'm going to create aninspection. >> can you do one thing beforeyou do that? >> sure.>> can you go back to the dashboard?>> yep. >> and i think what we willseeã¡-- if i'm not mistakenã¡-- >> on the left side.>> on the left side, you can

seeã¡-- well, when you are ableto see it, and again, i understand that some may not besable to see this very clearlyã¡-- some may not be ableto see this very clearly, but at this point he's simply assignedbuildings and units to sets. he's not done any inspections orput in any data yet, and that is nowã¡-- those numbers have beennow put on the dashboard. the only thing that's showing onthe dashboard, but those numbers, the number of units,the number of buildings, that's when this tool is submitted,that's what pic is going to

validate to.what that validation is doing is when we receive the tool fromthe housing authority, we will validate that they includedtheir whole inventory. and that's exactly how it'sdone. is by putting them in sets.if the housing authority doesn't put it in a set or you don't putit in a set, it's not going to validate when it comes up tohud. >> if it puts it into a set fromwhat the original down load was. >> the question comes from thefield office level, why am i

looking at this?the housing authority does all this work.yes, they do all this work, but, you know, you need to be awareof what they are doing because they're going to have questionson this. you know, where are my units?the answer to the question is if all of their units are notshowing up on this screen, they haven't assigned it.until they assign it, it is not going to show up on the screenand total unit accounts. >> great.mutually exclusive and

collectively exhaustive, theseunits should match. >> right.sorry. >> all right, so i'm back in myunit sets, and it's time for me and my team of assessors to headout and look at buildings. so we're conducting our pna of128-2013 and i'm going into the towers and i've made someobservations and entering them into the tool now.my first observation when i got to the tower, i want to inspectsomething, i'm going to enter a deficiency i saw.i'm going to go to the building

set.and i'm looking at the towers, and i'm going to inspectbuilding set. all right.okay. building name, i'm picking thetower. i'm the inspector.i'm bill. this is 7885 garden court.the description isã¡-- i will just call it tower 1.-- tower 1 assessment. add and close.you see once i've done that, a list of items came up.these of course are in my cost

library.i've got the option because it's a building to pick exterior orsystem. i'm going to choose a system.the system i will chooseã¡-- again, here, i've got theability to add a line item or choose one of the existing.i'm going to choose an existing. and i'm going to choose amodular large. i have an option of clicking onthis item here or clicking on the line, but i will justã¡-- noneed to add a line item because i'm choosing one that'sexisting, click on boiler large.

i will call this my firstboiler, take-off, i didn't get any from the take-off.and bruce i believe i've got a missing file there.sorry about that. i'm going to say this boiler wasinstalled in 1970. it's got ten years left.my replacement percent is 100%. my refurbishment would have toget me 50% of the life of a boiler which is not very usefulor not applicable here. and my comment is leaking.okay. and i'm going to save and close.and here's my boiler here.

it shows up.i can go over to the info tab to check it.all right. it gives me info on individualboilers, just making sure i have got it in the right category.i'm going to choose another item.i'm going to head over to chiller.description, this is my main. main chiller.and in this one, i'm going to add an attachment.my attachment of course right now is currently none.i will click on the paper clip

to add an attachment.i will bring up a folder. let's see here.i look on my desk top, i should have some kind of picture.>> there you go. >> and i'm calling this aã¡--let's see here, this one is the chiller.that's okay. picture of my chiller.i'm going to save and close. all right.and again, i will walk through this processã¡-- did i forget mynumber? yeah, got one boiler, sorry,save and close.

i will addã¡-- i will just addthose two items to the building for the sake of demonstration,and i will head back over to my control panel.i'm taking my units now. i'm looking at the units.i have got one inspection to make for the unit.i'm going to use the existing. i'm going toã¡-- sorryã¡-- add aninspection. choose one of let's see 785gordon court. i'm bill.7885 garden court. i'm bill.7885 building 3.

a description.i will call this assessment. i'm going to add and close that.i'm going to choose an existing. this one i'm specifically goingto choose the toilet. i'm going to sayã¡-->> good choice. >> yep.[laughter] >> everybody has them.[laughter] >> last session we were talkinga lot about toilets. >> oh, okay.12 of them. installation year 2001.rul 1.

replacement percent 100%.older unit on north side. okay.and i'm going to save and close. and those are essentially theã¡--the brief ones i would like to show.let's see how, i will add a common area.oh, sorry. where did my common area go?>> you lost it. >> i lost my common area.there it is. associated with the walk-up.oh, sorry. i will just call it c-a.>> yeah.

>> all right.and at the common area i want to look at the porch.and this is in square feet so i will make that 30 square feet.and this is 1950, and this is 0-100.okay. save and close.all right. at this point i've entered thoseitems. going to the control panel.and i would like to take a look at, you know, what they havedone for me. all right.inspection line items, results

in four projections.here i've got my chiller, my modular boiler, my steps and mytoilet. and the reports are available tome for those items, and you can see how entering items that waywould feed the much larger report that we talked about inthe very beginning. pna summary.all right. as well as pna needs by year.i think i have them in the out years.pnas by category. all right.now, one more thing i would like

to do before i run out of timehere, i'd like to head over to the cost projection.and i would like to look at an energy sustainability item.so for that i will choose sustainability, and i will add.and i will look at the categories i created, and ibelieve in the unit i have that. i've got my bathroom here.now, this one of course will take a little bit of ingenuityonly because i've done an energy audit.i've got some data from that energy audit.and i would like to add it to

this system here.so if you bear with me, i've got a page from my energy audit.let's see. in my energy audit, i gotã¡--let's see, this is a page just from the hud residential energybenchmarking tool that gives me my cents per kilowatt and mycents per therm. i also have one that gives mewater usage, and i'm pulling that from a qualified energyaudit and i'm finding out that water costs me $5 per 1,000gallons. again, if you can't see this,hopefully in the next version

this should be a little bit moreclear. but i have some parameters herethat tell me the number of units and how much i should beexpecting to save given the cost of $540.so i will start left to right because i'm very good atforgettingã¡-- [laughter]-- a box on any of these. so my line item id is 4721.i will call this just my low flow energy conservationmeasure. save water.my unit of measure isã¡--.

my cost index is correct.i can give it whatever cost index reference i have.i'm going to call this $540. my local multiplier i will leaveas 1. useful life replacement, i'mgoing to call 10. >> that would normally come fromthe manufacturer. >> yes.and my immediate replacement is 100.and the rulsã¡--. all right.usage per year, i'm going to call 480.now, that they are low flow, i'm

going to call it 320.and again, this data is in the energy audit.so what we'll do in the much more detailed section, we'llpull out of a qualifying energy audit and show you exactly howthose go in here, and my rate per gallon isã¡.05 cents pergallon. and you calculate the paybackand hope it's something you would do.your incremental payback is 52ã¡--[laughter] >>ã¡-- so you might not do thisone, but it will show up in your

summary.so project costs over 20 years, and this will show you how muchyou saved over that time. so what i'd like to do beforeweã¡-- insert line item, that's right.and then you see there it shows up as a green item.all right. so that's basically thedemonstration in a nutshell. i'd like to be back to do a muchmore detailed one. >> we do have a more detailedone coming up in about a week; right?for those people who signed up

for the live training course.>> right. >> so i think this gives you asense of what the software is like, how to begin to fill itout. it's not necessarily rocketscience. but it requires a certain amountof expertise. you have to understand buildingsystems, building components, cost estimating, those sorts ofthings. so it's something doable.i think we're all able to understand what was being showntoday.

it does require a lot of work init. we'reã¡-- there's a lot oftake-offs that you have to put in there.there's a lot of data that you have to collect.my suggestion, just take it for whatever it's worth, i wouldfind a housing authority that wants to do a pna now, and iwould go out there and go along with them, whether it's a smallhousing authority, medium sized housing authority, and go withthem from start to finish. so you can actually be with themand collect the data so youã¡--

the reason why i say this isbecause i've done that. and i have now a much greaterappreciation for the process, and i can answer questionsbetter having gone out on site and actually done some of thedata collection and the types of things that bill was just doingfor us. so we're going to take a quickbreak. five minutes.come back. and we'll put our panel back onand have some last questions and answers.so with that, we will go to a

break for about five minutes.thank you. >> welcome back to theã¡-- i'mhaving brain freezeã¡-- capital funds green physical needsassessment. at this juncture we're goingthrough our last questions and answers.and if you get your last minute questions at hud pna @ hud.govbefore we finish up, that would be great.we have a couple already. so bruce can you tell us whatthe firstã¡-- give us what our first question is?>> is there a preferred

contractor list, a hud preferredcontractor list, i guess some hud programs do have certifiedcontractors that you pick from, i guess?>> i think the answer is in the public housing program, we don'thave any preferred contractors as far as i'm aware.>> right. >> and we don't really have anyplans to do that. the housing authorities willhave to go through the regular procurement process to solicitthe way they would normally would do for their architectsand engineers and accountants

and lawyers.>> i think we also recognize it's going to be very intensiveprocess across the country, and we didn't want to unnecessarilylimit the number of people that can work on this across thecountry. a lot of especially smallhousing authorities are maybe dealing with a small office thatmay only do one of these. >> and i can understand bothsides of the equation. >> right.>> because we've had that issue before.at one point in time, hud did

have, back in the 80s, i thinkit was, maybe early 90s, it had a hud published list indifferent programatic categories of contractors, who came in,submitted their qualifications, and so they got on the list.that gives you somewhat of a source for identifying firmsthat will do this, but i think if you go to some of thestandard sources that you normally go to, particularlywith the trade associations and other types of people where youmight be advertising more than just in the gazette.the key is to draw enough firms

to get competition, and that'spart of the issue i think for the smaller housing authorities.but i don't believe that you should have that much of aproblem, particularly if you expand your solicitation beyondjust the gazette. >> and while there's nopublished list of approved vendors, there is a publishedlist of required capacity. >> correct.>> qualifications. >> right.that would be included in your solicitation.>> is there a checklist to fill

out of all the information ordata that's needed to be input into the gpna software?>> we have the users guide. we have the users guide, whichhas a number of checklists in it.and so i would strongly encourage you to go in there andget those and pull those out as you go through the entire usersguide. >> i also would observe andthere's a slide that you have, i don't remember which number itis, but there is a slide, at a minimum, at a minimum level,ofã¡-- jump in and correct me if

i'm wrongã¡-- there's four maininputs that need to be made for every component.and if you put in those four items for every component,you'll end up with a 20-year projection.>> that's correct. >> there's a lot of detail thatcan go into the tool. a lot of other things that youcan use and features, but at the very minimum, kind of baselevel, if you know what your components are, if you know howmany you have, how much they cost, how long they last and howold they are, that's it.

intuitively it is fairly simple.but there is a lot of additional information you can put in.>> the minimum of 10% of each unit in each type in each set,20% of each building, that's simply a minimum.you could do up to 100%. so it is up to each housingauthority to decide how much information is enough for theirneeds. >> that's correct.and bill mentioned a moment ago i wanted to just mention it injust in case we are having here in washington a live trainingsession, a training day on the

6th of february.i doubt that many of you can make it, although i think someof you are. we had a limited amount ofspace, and we wanted to make sure that we had enough toaccommodate all of our housing authorities and vendors thatwanted to come, so we do have a few seats left.if there's anybody that wants to come to washington nextwednesday, and hopefully it won't snow, we do have atraining day that day here at hud.and if you are interested in

that, you can e-mail to hud pna@ hud.gov and we can get you the registration information, justas an aside, just in case. >> bruce you mentioned that theslide presentation had some good materials they could use, backon the question about checklists, where can theygetã¡-- are the slides available separately from the posting ofthe webinar? can they be postedã¡-->> the slides for this presentation?>> yes. >> i e-mailed prior to thepresentation, so most people

should have them, but again, ifyou don't have them, i can certainly e-mail them out.we areã¡-- there's certain information that's more of afield office specific, like these two webinars that we'redoing just for the field offices.we are also hoping to do, you know, a limited field officetraining here in washington or in some other format.kind of the subject matter, the experts that develop from thefield offices to get them into the more detail.but i have also set up, again,

by way of where do i get thisstuff, i have set up a share point site following thismeeting, i will e-mail back out to everyone who was on theoriginal invitation list, and i will provide a share point linkwhere i will have the gpna tool in blank form and the gpna toolprototype form because that as you know we've discussed before,the ones on the web page, hud employees are not able to download because of the software attachment so we use the actualcore microsoft access version and those will be available atthe share point site which is

where i will also put thosequery forms as well. so that's kind of the placewhere i'm going to have the stuff that kind of field officespecific. >> that will be your centralrepository. >> yes.>> bill, we had a prior question when you weren't here aboutrefurbishments, and you mentioned that today.the first person i have heard talk about refurbishmentauthorityã¡-- authoritatively, can you tell us about that?>> in practice, many housing

authorities go out and put aband-aid on something. they will fix something toextend the useful life, you know, a year or two.now, technically that's probably not the most cost effective wayto do it. so we've got specific rules inthe tool around refurbishment. we'd like to refurbish somethingbut only if it gets you more than 50% of its useful life.so if you're looking at that boiler, which is my example andi know i could get a couple years out of it by investinganother 1 or 2,000 dollars,

that's probably not the optimalapproach. so refurbishments, you know,there's always the replacement versus repair analysis, that wedo, but it's only in very limited cases that you couldactually use the refurbishment. and bruce you may be able toprovide more insight. just in practice we haven't usedit that much. >> and we put it in the tool.we recognized it in the tool as a way of recognizing that hey,you know, the reality is we have a 20 billion dollars backlog.ten years ago.

we still have a 26 billiondollars backlog today. what happened to all this stuff?well, that's what happened to it.you know, people have been refurbishing and, you know,patching elbows for that period of time.so it's really recognizing the reality of what's happening inpublic housing and having a way for people to show that if theywanted to. that's why we included therefurbishment element in the tool.>> like having an old model car,

you keep replacing variouslittle parts just to keep it running.>> i do have another question. and if you think hard enough,you will know who sent this question in.can we be able to use the gpna for the justification for thetests? you look mystified.>> do you want to use the phone a friend?>> i haven't looked at that reg in quite a while.i have a vague recollection that there wasã¡-- was it 90% ofã¡-- oris thatã¡--

>> i think the answer is thatthe tool would certainly provide the information to determine,you know, obsolescence, but we would advise housing authoritiesand i actually have, that if you're planning to use the toolfor that, one, you need to use a cost index, more than likely oneof the recognized cost indexes, and two, you are going to needto justify it, probably have a third party do an objectivephysical needs assessment if you're wanting to support, youknow, a demolition action. soã¡-- and it goes to a largerpoint, is there a lot of

activities that housingã¡-- thathousing authorities engage in that a pna would be used for,financial transactions, other transactions?what we are basically talking about is the strategic planningfunction of the pna. if you wantã¡-- the housingauthority wants to use the pna for other things, like rad, likefinancial, like supporting a demolition or removal, theywould have toã¡-- in that case have to use a third partyã¡-->> and you would have to meet the requirements of thatindividual program.

and so you would either have togo to the regs or whatever the case may be to figure out whatthose requirements are and if ours meets it and it provides it with data, we don't have aproblem with it. i like the notion ofsynchronization so you don't have to do two or threedifferent types of pnas. >> exactly.so the take away is if you know housing authorities are planningsome major financial

transaction, or something likethat, they are well advised to use a third party, if they needto use this for something else.that's our last question. >> that's our last question.okay. well, thank you panel.we appreciate your attendance here today.that pretty much wraps up our program for this afternoon.remember, you can always get usatã¡-- what was the web address again?>> hud pna @ hud.gov.

>> thank you very mucheverybody. >> thank you.